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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2013, 20:50 
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Linguistic wrote:
Pragmatic wrote:
The story of هلكت وأهلكت

According to this post in another forum, the credentials of this story are:

في مصنف ابن أبي شيبة (8 / 558) (رقم 26716):
حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ سَعِيدٍ ، عَن سُفْيَانَ ، عَنْ أَبِي حَصِينٍ ، عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ ، أَنَّ عَلِيًّا رَأَى رَجُلاً يَقُصُّ ، فقَالَ : عَلِمْت النَّاسِخَ وَالْمَنْسُوخَ ؟ قَالَ : لاَ قَالَ : هَلَكْت وَأَهْلَكْت

Translation:
Reported by Ibn Abi-Shayba in his classification book, volume 8, page 558, narration number 26716, narrated Yahya ibn Sa`eed, from Sufyaan, from Abu-Ħaşeen, from Abu-AbdirRahmaan.

A longer chain of narrators appears in the book الاعتبار في الناسخ والمنسوخ من الآثار, page 4, ending with the book's author Abu-Bakr Al-Ħaazimi Al-Hamdaani. Here it is,
أخبرنا أبو العلاء الحسن بن أحمد الحافظ، أخبرنا أبو علي الحسن بن أحمد القاري، أخبرنا أحمد بن جعفر الفقيه، أخبرنا أبو الفرج عثمان بن أحمد بن اسحاق البرحي، أخبرنا أبو حفص محمد بن عمر بن حفص، حدثنا أبو جعفر أحمد بن محمد بن الحسين أخبرنا الحسين بن حفص أخبرنا سفيان عن أبي حصين عن أبي عبد الرحمن


Al-Hamdaani also tells another narration, ending with him, which identifies the story teller as Abu-Yahya Al-Mu`arqib and that the man said that he stopped telling stories altogether after Ali chastised him.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 28 Oct 2013, 04:51 
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Quote:
A longer chain of narrators appears in the book الاعتبار في الناسخ والمنسوخ من الآثار, page 4, ending with the book's author Abu-Bakr Al-Ħaazimi Al-Hamdaani. Here it is,
أخبرنا أبو العلاء الحسن بن أحمد الحافظ، أخبرنا أبو علي الحسن بن أحمد القاري، أخبرنا أحمد بن جعفر الفقيه، أخبرنا أبو الفرج عثمان بن أحمد بن اسحاق البرحي، أخبرنا أبو حفص محمد بن عمر بن حفص، حدثنا أبو جعفر أحمد بن محمد بن الحسين أخبرنا الحسين بن حفص أخبرنا سفيان عن أبي حصين عن أبي عبد الرحمن


Al-Hamdaani also tells another narration, ending with him, which identifies the story teller as Abu-Yahya Al-Mu`arqib and that the man said that he stopped telling stories altogether after Ali chastised him.

Why would a story teller need to know about abrogation? What is the context that made Aly (RA) ask him in the first place about such knowledge, then chastise him for it?

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 28 Oct 2013, 19:00 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Why would a story teller need to know about abrogation? What is the context that made Aly (RA) ask him in the first place about such knowledge, then chastise him for it?

I think that when they say "story teller" (قاص), they meant one who told stories of the Prophet, PBUH, (Seera) and his fellows (Sahaaba). That involved many hadeeths.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2013, 05:22 
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Linguistic wrote:
Pragmatic wrote:
Why would a story teller need to know about abrogation? What is the context that made Aly (RA) ask him in the first place about such knowledge, then chastise him for it?

I think that when they say "story teller" (قاص), they meant one who told stories of the Prophet, PBUH, (Seera) and his fellows (Sahaaba). That involved many hadeeths.

An interesting angle follows from your reply. Maybe Aly's (RA) remarks were about abrogated hadeeths since this is what the story teller would be telling.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2013, 14:06 
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Pragmatic wrote:
An interesting angle follows from your reply. Maybe Aly's (RA) remarks were about abrogated hadeeths since this is what the story teller would be telling.

Yea! And, as usual, scholars simply conflated it with abrogation in the Quran as if what applies to one applies to the other. That assumption cannot be made without further evidence. But then they probably thought that 2:106 was such evidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2013, 08:48 
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The story about Omar (RA) that is used to substantiate the abrogation of text:

حدثنا عمرو بن علي حدثنا يحيى حدثنا سفيان عن حبيب عن سعيد بن جبير عن ابن عباس قال قال عمر رضي الله عنه أقرؤنا أبي وأقضانا علي وإنا لندع من قول أبي وذاك أن أبيا يقول لا أدع شيئا سمعته من رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وقد قال الله تعالى ما ننسخ من آية أو ننسها


الحاشية رقم: 1
[ ص: 17 ] قوله : باب قوله تعالى ما ننسخ من آية أو ننسها نأت بخير منها أو مثلها كذا لأبي ذر ننسها بضم أوله وكسر السين بغير همز ، ولغيره " ننسأها " والأول قراءة الأكثر واختارها أبو عبيدة وعليه أكثر المفسرين ، والثانية قراءة ابن كثير وأبي عمرو وطائفة ، وسأذكر توجيههما ، وفيها قراءات أخرى في الشواذ .

قوله : ( حدثنا يحيى ) هو القطان ، وسفيان هو الثوري .

قوله : ( عن حبيب ) هو ابن أبي ثابت ، وورد منسوبا في رواية صدقة بن الفضل عن يحيى القطان في فضائل القرآن ، وفي رواية الإسماعيلي من طريق ابن خلاد " عن يحيى بن سعيد عن سفيان حدثنا حبيب " .

قوله : ( قال : عمر أقرؤنا أبي وأقضانا علي ) كذا أخرجه موقوفا ، وقد أخرجه الترمذي وغيره من طريق أبي قلابة عن أنس مرفوعا في ذكر أبي وفيه ذكر جماعة وأوله أرحم أمتي بأمتي أبو بكر - وفيه - وأقرؤهم لكتاب الله أبي بن كعب الحديث وصححه ، لكن قال غيره : إن الصواب إرساله ، وأما قوله وأقضانا علي فورد في حديث مرفوع أيضا عن أنس رفعه أقضى أمتي علي بن أبي طالب أخرجه البغوي ، وعن عبد الرزاق عن معمر عن قتادة عن النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - مرسلا أرحم أمتي بأمتي أبو بكر وأقضاهم علي الحديث ورويناه موصولا في فوائد أبي بكر محمد بن العباس بن نجيح " من حديث أبي سعيد الخدري مثله ، وروى البزار من حديث ابن مسعود قال : " كنا نتحدث أن أقضى أهل المدينة علي بن أبي طالب - رضي الله عنه - .

قوله : ( وإنا لندع من قول أبي ) في رواية صدقة " من لحن أبي " واللحن اللغة ، وفي رواية ابن خلاد " وإنا لنترك كثيرا من قراءة أبي " .

قوله : ( سمعته من رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم ) في رواية صدقة أخذته من في رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - ولا أتركه لشيء لأنه بسماعه من رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - يحصل له العلم القطعي به ، فإذا أخبره غيره عنه بخلافه لم ينتهض معارضا له حتى يتصل إلى درجة العلم القطعي ، وقد لا يحصل ذلك غالبا .

( تنبيه )

هذا الإسناد فيه ثلاثة من الصحابة في نسق : ابن عباس عن عمر عن أبي بن كعب .

قوله : ( وقد قال الله تعالى إلخ ) هو مقول عمر محتجا به على أبي بن كعب ومشيرا إلى أنه ربما قرأ ما نسخت تلاوته لكونه لم يبلغه النسخ ، واحتج عمر لجواز وقوع ذلك بهذه الآية . وقد أخرج ابن أبي حاتم من وجه آخر عن سعيد بن جبير عن ابن عباس قال : " خطبنا عمر فقال : إن الله يقول : ( ما ننسخ من آية أو ننسأها ) أي نؤخرها " وهذا يرجح رواية من قرأ بفتح أوله وبالهمز ، وأما قراءة من قرأ بضم أوله فمن النسيان ، وكذلك كان سعيد بن المسيب يقرؤها فأنكر عليه سعد بن أبي وقاص أخرجه النسائي وصححه الحاكم ، وكانت قراءة سعد " أو تنساها " بفتح المثناة خطابا للنبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - واستدل بقوله تعالى سنقرئك فلا تنسى وروى ابن أبي حاتم من طريق عكرمة عن ابن عباس قال : " ربما نزل على النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - الوحي بالليل ونسيه بالنهار فنزلت " واستدل بالآية المذكورة على وقوع النسخ خلافا لمن شذ فمنعه ، وتعقب بأنها قضية شرطية [ ص: 18 ] لا تستلزم الوقوع ، وأجيب بأن السياق وسبب النزول كان في ذلك لأنها نزلت جوابا لمن أنكر ذلك .

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2013, 19:31 
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Pragmatic wrote:
The story about Omar (RA) that is used to substantiate the abrogation of text:

Thank you.

What is the reference you found this text in?

This is a very brief translation:
Ibn Abbaas narrated that Umar said, "The most reciting of us is Ubayy and the most juristic is Ali. But we leave out some of what Ubayy recites, because he said, 'I do not leave out anything I heard from the Prophet (PBUH)', but God said, 'Whatever we abrogate...'"

Anas (ibn Maalik?) narrated similarly.

Umar's point is that he leaves out some of what Ubayy recites, because Ubayy recites everything he heard from the Prophet (PBUH) including what may have been abrogated, but abrogation can happen, Umar argued, based on 2:106.

This text also reports a third pronunciation of ننسها (We cause it to be forgotten), which I haven't read anywhere else, namely, تنسأها (you, Muhammad, forget it). That pronunciation was the way Sa`d ibn Abi-Waqqaas recited it. Such pronunciation implies that God is assuring the Prophet (PBUH) that if he forgets any revelation, God will reveal something similar to it to him later!

The author of this article replies to folks who deny the abrogation doctrine, saying that the circumstance of revelation and the context leave no doubt, since it was all about answering those who deny abrogation!

I beg to differ. The context and the circumstance of revelation are a reply to those who deny that the Quran abrogated the Torah. That does not automatically mean that the Quran abrogates itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2013, 19:57 
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Linguistic wrote:
What is the reference you found this text in?

I just googled "أقرؤنا أبي وأقضانا علي" to find the full narration. I quoted it here because of the specifics of the chain of narration, not because of the commentator's opinion.

People may argue that, if authentic, this narration provides evidence that Quranic verses that were not forgotten (since Ubayy remembers them) shouldn't be (from Omar's point of view) or weren't (according to what Omar knows) included in the text of the Quran. Not that I agree with that, just raising a point that should be addressed.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2015, 19:48 
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Pragmatic wrote:
The story of هلكت وأهلكت

Al-Jabri, in his book الناسخ والمنسوخ بين الإثبات والنفي, page 118, discusses this story and says that it was narrated by Ad-Dhahhaak ibn Muzaahim for Ibn-`Abbaas. He quotes Sa`eed ibn Jabeer saying that Ad-Dhahhaak never met Ibn-`Abbaas, so how can he narrate for him?

He then tells us that Ibn-Hibbaan, the author of a famous hadeeth compilation book, said that all narrations of Ad-Dhahhaak "need a second look"!

Then Al-Jabri mentions another interesting observation. He says that the phenomenon of story tellers in mosques did not exist at the Time of Ali, but rather during the Umayyad dynasty. Good point if it can be verified.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 02:49 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Linguistic wrote:
وقال عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه أبي أعلمنا بالمنسوخ

Translation: Umar ibn Al-Khattaab, may God have been pleased with him, said, "Ubayy (ibn Ka`b) is the most knowledgeable among us of the abrogated."

IMHO, the abrogated المنسوخ in this case is gone from the text, as supported by the story about the Prophet (PBUH) skipping a verse in the prayer and the ensuing discussion with Ubayy أبي بن كعب.

In Zaid's book (item 348 on page 245 of volume 1), there was a variation of Omar's narration with a twist. The narration says that

Ubbay is the "best in knowing the Quran by heart among us" أحفظنا and that "we leave out from what Ubayy says" as Ubayy says "I don't leave out anything I heard from the Prophet (PBUH)" and God has said "Whatever verse We may abrogate or cause to be forgotten"

Zaid comments that Omar decided to leave out from what Ubayy says and justified it by that Ubayy would recite what he heard from the Prophet even if some of it was abrogated or caused to be forgotten and is no longer recitable Quran.

I couldn't find a narration with the word أحفظنا but I did find one with the word أقرؤنا,


كتاب التفسير في ((صحيح البخاري)) سورة البقرة، باب قوله (ما ننسخ من آية) ص ٩٩ ج ٣

حدثنا عمرو بن علي حدثنا يحيى حدثنا سفيان عن حبيب عن سعيد بن جبير عن ابن عباس قال قال عمر رضي الله عنه أقرؤنا أبي وأقضانا علي وإنا لندع من قول أبي وذاك أن أبيا يقول لا أدع شيئا سمعته من رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وقد قال الله تعالى ما ننسخ من آية أو ننسها


Another version is narrated by Ibn Abbaas narrating from Umar.

Of interest is that elaborators of Hadeeth commented that this narration proves three things: That Ubayy did not accept the abrogation doctrine, that the Sahaaba were not in agreement about it and that 2:106 proves it.

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