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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2010, 16:56 
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Abdullah ibn Hamza Aş-Şa`di Al-Yamaani, in his book التبيان في الناسخ والمنسوخ في القرآن المجيد, page 149, says that Chapter 48 contains no abrogated or abrogating verses. Then on the very next line, he says that

was abrogated by the sword verse!

So, is he for this abrogation claim or against it?

Even Ibn Salaama, who was particularly liberal with abrogation claims, has said that Chapter 48 has no abrogated verses.

Who said what:
For:
Aş-Şa`di.

Against:
Ibn Salaama, who said that Chapter 48 has no abrogated verses,
Al-`Ataa'iqi, Muhammad ibn Al-Mutahhar (according to Dr. Al-Husayni).

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 04:12 
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Haani Taahir, in his book تنزيه آي القرآن عن النسخ والنقصان, pages 125-128, discusses the blanket claim about the sword verse and states confidently that it has abrogated nothing and that it and all other verses of the Quran have not been abrogated. He says that each verse addresses some aspect of Islamic life. For instance, pardoning polytheists does not apply when at war with them but when they put down their weapons we must stop the fight.

Taahir says that the misunderstanding of this simple concept has lead many Muslims to lousy attitudes toward non-Muslims.

He quotes former dean of the Faculty of Foundations of Religion at Al-Azhar University, Saadiq `Urjoon from his book,
الموسوعة في سماحة الإسلام، صادق عرجون، مؤسسة سجل العرب، القاهرة، ١٩٧٢م

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2010, 16:47 
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Dr. Mustafa Zayd, in his book النسخ في القرآن الكريم, volume 1, page 414 (item 586) adds this verse to the list of verses claimed abrogated by the sword verse. He does not name whom made the claim:


Who said what:
For:
Unnamed.

Against:
Dr. Mustafa Zayd.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2010, 17:23 
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Dr. Mustafa Zayd says in his book النسخ في القرآن الكريم, volume 1, page 416 (item 586), that this verse was claimed abrogated by the sword verse. He does not name the claimant,

He said they said that the meaning of judgment in this world was abrogated by the sword verse. One of the claimants is Ibn Salaama, in his book الناسخ والمنسوخ في القرآن الكريم, page 105.

Who said what:
For:
Ibn Salaama.

Against:
Dr. Mustafa Zayd.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 17 Oct 2010, 22:26 
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Dr. Mustafa Zayd, in his book النسخ في القرآن الكريم, volume 1, page 417 (item 587) asks, "Why is there any contradiction between limiting the Prophet's job, peace be upon him, to conveying from God, and between warning people of God's punishment if they choose disbelief and between fighting them when they fight this job and shun people from it?"

Indeed, what is the problem that caused many scholars to see abrogation by the sword verse? Doesn't the Quran tell the prophet (PBUH) quite clearly to do the following:

  1. Call people to Islam.
  2. If they do not believe, warn them of God's punishment in the Hereafter.
  3. If they still don't believe, then,
    1. If they do not stand in your way, leave them alone. Tell them that to them is their religion and to you is your religion. Do not be sad that they did not respond to you; you've done your job.
    2. If they fight you, aid those who fight you or prevent people from following you, then fight them until they stop. If the only way to stop them is to kill them, then so be it.
    3. Now that you prevailed and people of the Book are your subjects, collect from them a defense tax in lieu of the Zakah. If they refuse to pay, fight them until they do.

Isn't all that spelled out clearly in the Quran? Isn't it all logical? None of those steps has been abrogated by anything or abrogated anything. How hard is that to understand?

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 21:02 
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Abdul-Muta`aal Al-Jabri, in his book لا نسخ في القرآن...لماذا؟, pages 111-112, writes that Ibn Hazm Al-Andalusi said that

was abrogated by the sword verse. Al-Jabri rejects that claim saying that 8:38 simply states what will happen to those disbelievers who die battling Muslims. The sword verse does not address that; it only orders the fight.

I respectfully disagree with his argument, because I think that Ibn Hazm was referring to the beginning of the verse, "If they cease, they will be forgiven". He must have thought that disbelievers who cease should still be fought!

Who said what:
For:
Ibn Hazm Al-Andalusi.

Against:
Al-Jabri.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 24 Oct 2010, 23:49 
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Dr. Mustafa Zayd, in his book النسخ في القرآن الكريم, volume 1, page 477 (item 671), adds this verse to the list,

But he doesn't say who made the claim. He rejects it on the basis that it is a threat from God and a threat from God cannot be abrogated.

Who said what:
For:
Ibn Salaama.

Against:
Dr. Mustafa Zayd.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2010, 17:25 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Dr. Zaid and the Sword Verse
...
He refutes all the claims without exception, using strong language in many cases. I will focus here on his general comments about the sword verse with which he started this section.

Good review and summary comments, Pragmatic. Thanks.

For those who wish to read more details, the chapter you refer to is in his book النسخ في القرآن الكريم, volume 2, pages 5-87 (items 693-813). He particularly ridicules the claim that the epilogue of the verse abrogated its beginning and that 9:5 abrogated 2:192, when 2:192 matches the epilogue of 9:5!

His arguments include all the arguments we presented in the previous posts, but I'd like to highlight a few of his arguments for their importance in understanding the sword verse in particular and Chapter 9 in general:

  1. The polytheists referred to in 9:5 are a very specific group of people. They are the polytheists of Arabia, at the time of the Prophet, peace be upon him, with whom he had a non-aggression and armistice treaty but they breached it by raids, support of enemies of Muslims, causing sedition, persecuting those who accepted Islam so that they renounce it and preventing others from accepting Islam. They declared war against the Prophet (PBUH) and observed no scruples about it.

  2. The purpose of fighting those is not to force them into Islam, since God has declared that impossible! See


  3. Fighting that specific group and not accepting any more treaties with them is justified by their proven track record of persecution of Muslims, militancy and treachery. All other ways to co-exist with them in peace have failed because they wouldn't observe them.

  4. The purpose of fighting is to stop the persecution of Muslims and to provide a safe and secure environment for preachers to call people to Islam in peace. Consider

    That explains all the verses that prohibit bothering non-Muslims who do not stand in the way of the Islamic call, such as the verses that bracket the sword verse,

    And


  5. The hadeeth that many refer to as evidence for the all-out war interpretation,
    أمرت أن أقاتل الناس حتى يشهدوا أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمدا رسول الله، ويقيموا الصلاة، ويؤتوا الزكاة، فإن فعلوا ذلك عصموا مني دماءهم وأموالهم إلا بحق الإسلام، وحسلبهم على الله

    Translation: I was commanded to fight "the people" until they bear witness that there is no deity but God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God, establish prayer and pay alms. If they do that, then they have shielded their blood and property from me, except by right of Islam, and their account is upon God.

    This hadeeth is reported by Al-Bukhaari, Muslim, An-Nasaa'i, At-Tirmizhi, Abu-Daawood, Al-Haakim and Ibn Hanbal. An-Nasaa'i's version, however, refers to the polytheists and not "the people." Thus, it explains what the Prophet (PBUH) was referring to when he said "the people." There are many other examples in the Hadeeth and other narrations where the Arabs would say "the people" and mean a specific group of people. The scholars dubbed that literary style as عام أريد به الخاص (a generality meant for a specificity).

    I'd add that there is also another version reported by Al-Bukhaari, which specifies the polytheists. That version is narrated by Anas ibn Maalik, may God have been pleased with him.

  6. If the sword verse ordered the forced conversion of non-Muslims to Islam, then how come the Prophet (PBUH) forbade fighting or killing women, children, the elderly and the sick among them? Why did he allow all those folks to keep their beliefs?

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2010, 17:51 
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According to Dr. Mustafa Zayd, in his book النسخ في القرآن الكريم, volume 2, page 9 (item 699), Az-Zarkashi, in his book البرهان, volume 2, page 40, has claimed that the epilogue of the sword verse abrogated it! Dr. Zayd ridicules that claim and asks, "where is the contradiction that may justify a call for abrogation? If a polytheist repents, establishes prayer and pays alms, he's no longer a polytheist! Then he's not among those referred to by the beginning of the verse, is he?"

Who said what:
For:
Ibn Al`Arabi,
Az-Zarkashi,
Ibn Salaama.

Against:
Dr. Mustafa Zayd.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2010, 17:23 
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Dr. Mustafa Zayd, in his book النسخ في القرآن الكريم, volume 2, page 76 (items 797), mentions that Ibn Salaama reported that "some" have claimed that

was abrogated by the sword verse. Even Ibn Salaama rejected that claim! He said that Chapter 36 contains no abrogated or abrogating verses. Dr. Zayd ridicules the claim saying, "The command to fight the polytheists does not mean that the Prophet (PBUH) was now allowed to be saddened by what the polytheists say, after he was forbidden to be saddened by it!"

Who said what"
For:
Unnamed by Ibn Salaama.

Against:
Ibn Salaama,
Dr. Mustafa Zayd.

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