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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2010, 05:55 
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One of the verses that some abrogationists have quoted as supporting their claim is this,

Ironically, this verse states that no one but God knows the ultimate interpretation of the verses which they claim have been abrogated. How do they know that when God said none can but He?

And how about

Which instructs Muslims to refer to the prophet (pbuh) in all matters they differ about. Now that the prophet has died, no scholar has the right to state for fact that he knows the interpretation of a verse and that it was abrogated especially when other scholars say differently. It would be another matter if the prophet (pbuh) said anything about abrogation but he never did. That should have closed the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2010, 05:28 
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Linguistic wrote:
This topic is to discuss why scholars have taken the position that abrogation has occurred in the Quran.

I would like to address this question in specific terms. In the references listed at the beginning of the "Abrogation bibliography" thread here, two things are strikingly common. First, the assertion that there are abrogated verses is stated as a fact not an opinion. Second, the same supporting evidence is given and there are four specific categories of this evidence.

1. Interpretation of 2:106 and related verses in a way that supports the doctrine of abrogation.

2. One or two Hadeeth's of the Prophet (PBUH) about a verse that had been part of the Quran and was gone.

3. The narration about Omar's (may God be pleased with him) statement about the stoning verse that he reported had been in the Quran before, and about Aisha (may God be pleased with her) about a verse that was gone and replaced by a different verse (the five versus ten case).

4. The story about an authoritative figure scorning a person who didn't know about the abrogating and the abrogated (the different "هلكت وأهلكت " narratives).

As far as the thesis "there are no abrogated verses in the text of the Quran" is concerned, points 2 and 3 have no bearing since they address verses that are not in the text. Point 1 is clearly the most important, and is addressed in a separate thread. The remaining piece of evidence (or at least the one that made it to the above references) that is related to the thesis is point 4. I will dedicate the next post to analyzing this point inshaallah.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2010, 22:46 
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More verses that convince me there are no abrogated verses in the Quran,


In this verse God is proud of His Book whose verses He says are fixed then elaborated. That is particularly ironic, isn't it, since abrogationists have consistently referred to unabrogated verses as "fixed"?
And

In this verse, God makes it clear that His way does not change and does not take a different route. I get from it that His verses don't either.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 22 Jan 2010, 01:41 
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The story of هلكت وأهلكت

The story involving this Arabic sentence (which means "you are doomed and you doomed others") was mentioned in the following references (page numbers refer to the Internet copy). The story is mentioned as evidence of the importance of the abrogated and abrogating verses, which obviously implies that they exist in the first place.

نواسخ القرآن لابن الجوزي (page 4)

الناسخ والمنسوخ في القرآن الكريم لابن حزم الأندلسي (page 1)

الناسخ والمنسوخ لأبي القاسم المقري (page 1)

المصفى بأكف أهل الرسوخ من علم الناسخ والمنسوخ لابن الجوزي (page 1)

قلائد المرجان في بيان الناسخ والمنسوخ في القرآن لمرعي بن يوسف الكرمي (page 1)

Under different narratives, the story is that a man was addressing people in a religious setting and was confusing what is allowed with what is disallowed, and what is a command to do with what is a command not to do. An authoritative figure (depending on the narrative: Aly or Ibn Abbas, may God be pleased with them, or someone else) came by and asked the man if he knows the abrogating from the abrogated. When the man said that he doesn't, the authoritative figure said to him " هلكت وأهلكت " which is taken as evidence of the importance of having such knowledge.

I have three comments on this story in regard to its value as evidence related to the main question of this project "are there abrogated verses in the text of the Quran?"

1. Authenticity: The fact that the same story exists but with the authoritative figure being a different person under different narratives raises a question about its authenticity. It is not impossible that the same story happened with different persons, but it's rather unlikely.

2. Context: Even if the story is true, the man who was lecturing was obviously unqualified to address people on religious matters, and it is possible that the question that the authoritative figure asked him was aimed at pinning down his ignorance and that " هلكت وأهلكت " was about speaking without knowledge in general rather than specifically related to the abrogating and abrogated.

3. Implication: Even if " هلكت وأهلكت " was about not knowing the abrogating and abrogated, there are more aspects to abrogation than having "abrogated verses in the text of the Quran." For instance, the change of rules that happened in the Sunna is referred to by some as abrogation.

My point is simple. If this story is the one that makes it to 5 references dedicated to abrogation, and is considered as supporting evidence for the doctrine of abrogation (of verses in the text of the Quran, that is), then this does not speak well of the strength of the available evidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 22 Jan 2010, 19:26 
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Linguistic wrote:
More verses that convince me there are no abrogated verses in the Quran

I went back and read your analysis of 3:7, 4:59, 10:15, and 10:59 in this thread, and I wanted to voice my support for your arguments. In particular,



is very comforting when we are contesting something that was not firmly based on the Quran or the Sunna, such as verses in the text of the Quran that are claimed to be abrogated. The verse 4:59 provides an authoritative version of what Imam Malik once said "You can take or leave from what everyone says, except the man in this grave" (PBUH).

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010, 05:08 
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Linguistic wrote:
In this context, the point must be emphasized that there is no authentic evidence that the prophet, peace be upon him, said at all that any verse of the Quran has abrogated another.

I found the following claim on the web, and I wonder if this is a Hadeeth of the Prophet (PBUH):

Quote:
A text search in Sahih Bukhari turned this up:

حدثنا عياش: حدثنا عبد الأعلى: حدثنا عبيد الله، عن نافع، عن ابن عمر رضي الله عنهما:
قرأ: {فدية طعام مسكين}. قال: هي منسوخة


Ibn Umar Radhi Allahu `anhuma recited (surat ul baqarah 184) and said: This is mansookh

So the sahabah knew the concept of naskh, it hasn't been invented by the later fuqaha.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010, 17:55 
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Pragmatic wrote:
I found the following claim on the web, and I wonder if this is a Hadeeth of the Prophet (PBUH):

Quote:
A text search in Sahih Bukhari turned this up:

حدثنا عياش: حدثنا عبد الأعلى: حدثنا عبيد الله، عن نافع، عن ابن عمر رضي الله عنهما:
قرأ: {فدية طعام مسكين}. قال: هي منسوخة


Ibn Umar Radhi Allahu `anhuma recited (surat ul baqarah 184) and said: This is mansookh

I looked for this hadeeth here, and there is no mention of it in any of the six authentic hadeeth collections. I've seen claims before attributed to Al-Bukhaari which are false and some which turn out to be commentary Al-Bukhaari made on the margin of his Saheeh book but did not include in the body of the text, probably because he didn't find them authentic enough per his criteria.

Quote:
So the sahabah knew the concept of naskh, it hasn't been invented by the later fuqaha.

The concept of naskh was not invented by anybody, it is stated by the Quran. That's how the Sahaaba knew it. However, they started the assertion that it occurred in the Quran. The later fuqahaa followed suit and some disagreed.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010, 18:33 
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Linguistic wrote:
I've seen claims before attributed to Al-Bukhaari which are false and some which turn out to be commentary Al-Bukhaari made on the margin of his Saheeh book but did not include in the body of the text

Did Al-Bukhaari include in the body of his text "hadeeths" that are not words (or deeds) of the Prophet (PBUH) personally? The statement in question, as narrated, seems to be the words of Ibn Omar without attributing them back to the Prophet.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2010, 21:30 
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Pragmatic wrote:
The story of هلكت وأهلكت

The story involving this Arabic sentence (which means "you are doomed and you doomed others") was mentioned in the following references

I am not alone in noticing the importance given to this story, the Wikipedia article about abrogation that is cited in this post mentions the story in its second paragraph:

Quote:
The emergence of naskh (initially as practice and then as fully elaborated theory) dates back to the first centuries of Islamic civilization. Almost all classical naskh works, for instance, begin by recounting the incident of the Kufan preacher banned from expounding the Qur'ān by an early 'ilmic authority figure (usually 'Alī but sometimes also Ibn 'Abbās) on account of his ignorance of the principles of naskh.

Disclaimer: I am not using Wikipedia, or any unauthenticated or non-Muslim reference for that matter, as a reliable source. Rather, I use them as pointers to relevant issues that are yet to be authenticated. In this case, the statement "Almost all classical naskh works, for instance, begin by recounting the incident" is something that personally authenticated (in the quoted post) even before running into the Wikipedia page.

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 Post subject: Why keep abrogated verses?
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2010, 21:32 
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One of the questions to ask, if one would accept that verses in the text of the Quran have been abrogated is:
Why would God abrogate a ruling in a verse but still keep the verse in the text?

That is a good question to ponder, and if left unanswered, it casts doubt on the claim. Well, I found one answer on a web site called QuranWeb which seems to have been removed. My translation of its answer is as follows:

1. In addition to verses stating rules, reciting verses is a worship rewarded in itself.
2. Abrogated verses that remained remind Muslims of how harder the command of God was before He eased it, thus Muslims will appreciate God's mercy on them.

The second point is a good one. But the first is easily refuted by the fact that has often been reported in the literature that some verses used to be recited then they were abrogated and never written down.

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