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 Post subject: Did 26:227 abrogate 26:224?
PostPosted: 25 Feb 2010, 18:26 
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Ibn Al-Jawzi reports one abrogation claim in Chapter 26. He said that one narration tracing back to Ibn Abbaas claims that he said

was abrogated by

Here is what Ibn Al-Jawzi wrote about this case,

باب ذكر ما ادعي عليه النسخ في سورة الشعراء. قوله تعالى "والشعراء يتبعهم الغاوون". أخبرنا ابن ناصر قال أبنا ابن أيوب قل أبنا ابن شاذان قال أبنا أبو بكر النجاد قال أبنا أبو داود السجستاني قال بنا أحمد بن محمد قال بنا علي بن الحسين عن أبيه عن يزيد النحوي عن عكرمة عن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما "والشعراء يتبعهم الغاوون" فنسخ من ذلك واستثنى فقال "إلا الذين آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات وذكروا الله كثيرا". قلت وقد بينا أن الاستثناء ليس بنسخ. ولا يعول على هذا وإنما هذه الألفاظ من تغيير الرواة وإلا فقد أخبرنا المبارك بن علي قال أبنا أحمد بن الحسين قال أبنا البرمكي قال أبنا محمد بن إسماعيل قال أبنا أبو بكر بن داود قال بنا يعقوب بن سفيان قال بنا أبو صالح قال حدثني معاوية بن صالح عن علي بن أبي طلحة عن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما "والشعراء يتبعهم الغاوون" ثم استثنى المؤمنين فقال "إلا الذين آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات" فهذا هو اللفظ الصحيح عن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما وإن هذا هو استثناء لا نسخ وإنما الرواة تنقل بما تظنه المعنى فيخطئون


In his explanation above, Ibn Al-Jawzi makes a very serious statement! He says that narrators did not correctly narrate what Ibn Abbaas said, that they narrate what they think he meant. He quotes another narration which clarifies what Ibn Abbaas actually said.

This statement casts doubt on all narrations tracing back to Ibn Abbaas, IMHO. How do we know what he actually said?

The only difference between the two narrations is that the first one has the words فنسخ من ذلك (and He abrogated from that). If this first narration is the correct one, it confirms what I have come to be convinced of about Ibn Abbaas, namely, that he meant by نسخ any subsequent change to the provision of a verse. And that is not what abrogation is.

That said, verse 2:224 is a statement of fact, so it cannot be abrogated. Besides, an exception does not constitute abrogation, but rather a completion of the statement.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 2:227 abrogate 26:224?
PostPosted: 25 Feb 2010, 19:09 
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Linguistic wrote:
وإنما الرواة تنقل بما تظنه المعنى فيخطئون
...
This statement casts doubt on all narrations tracing back to Ibn Abbaas, IMHO. How do we know what he actually said?

This is one of the main topics of the upcoming "The Attribution Issue." :)

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 Post subject: Who said what
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2010, 18:03 
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For:
Ibn Abbaas (in one report),
Ikrima (according to Ibn Al-Jawzi says Az-Zalmi),
Ibn Hazm Al-Andalusi,
Ibn Salaama,
Ibn Al-Baarizi,
Dr. Abdullah Al-Husayni.


Against:
Ibn Abbaas (implied in another report),
Ibn Al-Jawzi (who accused reporters of reporting what they understood, not what was said),
Ash-Shaatibi,
Ibn Al`Arabi and Aş-Şa`di (who said that Chapter 26 has no abrogated nor abrogating verses),
Al-Aloosi, Ar-Raazi (according to Az-Zalmi),
Dr. Mustafa Zayd,
Dr. Az-Zalmi.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 2:227 abrogate 26:224?
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2010, 18:10 
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In refuting this claim, Dr. Az-Zalmi in his book التبيان لرفع غموض النسخ في القرآن, page 342, mentions three recognized poets among the Sahaaba who wrote poetry at the time of the Prophet (PBUH) and were accepted and praised: Abul-Waleed Hassaan ibn Thaabit (nicknamed the Messenger's Poet), Ka`b ibn Maalik (d. 53 A.H.), and Abdullah ibn Rawaaha Al-Khazraji Al-Ansaari.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 2:227 abrogate 26:224?
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2010, 14:59 
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Linguistic wrote:
In refuting this claim, Dr. Az-Zalmi in his book التبيان لرفع غموض النسخ في القرآن, page 342, mentions three recognized poets among the Sahaaba who wrote poetry at the time of the Prophet (PBUH) and were accepted and praised: Abul-Waleed Hassaan ibn Thaabit (nicknamed the Messenger's Poet), Ka`b ibn Maalik (d. 53 A.H.), and Abdullah ibn Rawaaha Al-Khazraji Al-Ansaari.

Al-Khazraji, in his book نفس الصباح في غريب القرآن وناسخه ومنسوخه, volume 2, pages 555-556 in the footnotes provides some details of those three poets,

  • Abdullah ibn Rawaaha ibn Tha`laba Al-Khazraji of Medina. He was a Sahaabi and he died year 8 A.H. in the battle of Mu'ta.
  • Ka`b ibn Maalik ibn `Amr ibn Al-Qayn, also from Medina and also from Al-Khazraj tribe. He attended the allegiance at Al-`Aqaba and participated in all battles until Tabook, in which he was one of three boycotted by Muslims until God revealed that He accepted their repentance (9:118). He died 53 or 55 A.H.
  • It's been said that Ka`b was not Ka`b ibn Maalik, but Ka`b ibn Zuhayr ibn Abi-Sulma Al-Maazini, son of a renowned pre-Islamic poet. After he accepted Islam, he wrote a long poem (قصيدة) praising the Prophet (PBUH) known as Al-Laamiyya.

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