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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2010, 04:56 
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Linguistic wrote:
Ibn Al-Jawzi reports that this verse,

was claimed abrogated by the sword verse. He quickly dismisses that, writing,

ذكر الآية العاشرة: قوله تعالى "ولا تسبوا الذين يدعون من دون الله فيسبوا الله عدوا بغير علم". قال المفسرون هذه نسخت بتنبيه الخطاب في آية السيف، لأنها تضمنت الأمر بقتلهم والقتل أشنع من السب. ولا أرى هذه الآية منسوخة، بل يكره للإنسان أن يتعرض بما يوجب ذكر معبوده بسوء أو بنبيه صلى الله عليه وسلم


The argument used for the abrogation claim by some exegetists that the sword verse orders fighting and fighting is worse than slandering. Poor logic.

Poor is an understatement.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2010, 04:59 
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Linguistic wrote:
Another claim Ibn Al-Jawzi quickly dismisses is that this verse

was abrogated by the sword verse. He writes,

ذكر الآية الثانية: قوله تعالى "وأملي لهم إن كيدي متين". قال المفسرون المراد بكيده مجازاة أهل الكبد والمكر، وهذه خبر فهي محكمة. وقد ذهب من قل علمه من منتحلي التفسير إلى أن معنى الآية الأمر للنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم بمشاركتهم قال ونسخ معناها بآية السيف، وهذا قول لا يلتفت إليه

Some people seem to be looking for abrogation cases like a bunch of kids looking for hidden Easter eggs. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2010, 05:05 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Some people seem to be looking for abrogation cases like a bunch of kids looking for hidden Easter eggs. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

If 124 people come to you at different times and all of them said the same thing to you, then later one person comes and says what seems to be the opposite, is it reasonable to dismiss what the 124 people said? Isn't this an overwhelming evidence against the word of that one person?

And if you trust that one person as much as you trust the 124 before him, wouldn't that cause you to try to understand what he really said, perhaps you misunderstood his message?

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2010, 05:17 
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One verse claimed abrogated by the sword verse, according to Ibn Al-Jawzi is


This is what he writes about it,

ذكر الآية الثالثة: قوله تعالى "إلا الذين عاهدتم عند المسجد الحرام فما استقاموا لكم فاستقيموا لهم". في المشار إليهم بهذه المعاهدة ثلاثة أقوال: الأول أنهم بنو ضمرة، والثاني قريش. روي القولان عن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما. وقال قتادة هم مشركو قريش الذين عاهدهم نبي الله زمن الحديبية فنكثوا وظاهروا المشركين. والثالث أنهم خزاعة دخلوا في عهد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لما عاهد المشركين يوم الحديبية وهذا قول مجاهد. وقوله "فما استقاموا لكم" أي ما أقاموا على الوفاء بعهدهم "فاستقيموا لهم" قال بعض المفسرين ثم نسخ هذا بآية السيف


He said that some exegetes said that the clause "As long as they have been straight with you, be straight with them" was abrogated by the sword verse. In other words, those exegetes actually believe that Muslims have a new license to betray those who have been straight with them!

Who said what:
For:
Ibn Salaama, in his book الناسخ والمنسوخ في القرآن الكريم, page 68.
P.S. Ibn Abbaas, Qataada and Mujaahid offered different interpretations but no claim of abrogation.

Against:
Dr. Mustafa Zayd.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2010, 06:30 
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Linguistic wrote:
He said that some exegetists said that the clause "As long as they have been straight with you, be straight with them" was abrogated by the sword verse. In other words, those exegetists actually believe that Muslims have a new license to betray those who have been straight with them!

Then, they should also aborgate


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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2010, 18:25 
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Ibn Al-Jawzi reports that Ibn Abbaas is reported to have added to the list,

He wrote,

ذكر الآية الثانية: قوله تعالى "وإن كذبوك فقل لي عملي ولكم عملكم". روى أبو صالح عن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما قال نسختها آية السيف، وهذا بعيد من ثلاثة أوجه: الأول أنه لا يصح عن ابن عباس، والثاني أنه ليس بين الآيتين تناف، والمنسوخ لا يصح اجتماعه مع الناسخ، والثالث أنه لا يصح أن يدعي نسخ هذه الآية بل إن قيل مفهومها منسوخ عندهم فقل لي عملي واقتصر على ذلك ولا تقاتلهم. وليس الأمر كذلك. إنما معنى الآية لي جزاء عملي، فإن كنت كاذبا فوباله علي، ولكم جزاء عملكم في تكذيبكم لي. وفائدة هذا لا يمنع من قتالهم، وهو أقرب إلى ما يفهم منها فلا وجه للنسخ


He says that the report attributed to Ibn Abbaas is not authentic. It would have been very helpful if all pro-abrogation scholars had validated the authenticity of narrations they quoted as evidence of abrogation.

Then, he asserts that the verse does not contradict the sword verse because this verse simply means that the Prophet (PBUH) is not responsible for the work of the polytheists and that does not negate that he can fight them. Another obvious argument.

Who said what:
for:
Ibn Abbaas (doubtful narration),
Ibn Zayd,
Mujaahid and Al-Kalbi (according to Aş-Şa`di),
Makki (implied),
Ibn Salaama.

Against:
Ibn Al-Jawzi,
Dr. Mustafa Zayd.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2010, 18:51 
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Linguistic wrote:
He says that the report attributed to Ibn Abbaas is not authentic. It would have been very helpful if all pro-abrogation scholars had validated the authenticity of narrations they quoted as evidence of abrogation.

It may be worth it, although it's a lot of work, to list all the narrations of Ibn-Abbas about abrogation, together with their chains of attribution. Then

1. If some narrations are dismissed as unauthentic, we can match the attribution chain and see if others, that have not been declared unauthentic, share some people in the attribution chain.

2. If some narrations are dismissed without saying if it was the attribution or the disagreement with the opinion that caused that, we can also look at similar narrations that were not dismissed and have more ground in disagreeing with them.

3. If some narrations are dismissed based solely on disagreement with the opinion, these provide a solid basis for arguing the same about other narrations, and also solidifies the blanket point that abrogation did not mean the same thing to Ibn-Abbas and other Sahaba.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2010, 18:53 
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Ibn Al-Jawzi reports that all of the following verses have been claimed abrogated by the sword verse:

And

And

And


He wrote,

ذكر الآية الثالثة: قوله تعالى "وإما نرينك بعض الذي نعدهم". زعم بعضهم أنها منسوخة بآية السيف، فكأنه ظن أن معناها اترك قتالهم فربما رأيت بعض الذي نعدهم وليس هذا شيء.

ذكر الآية الرابعة: قوله تعالى "أفأنت تكره الناس حتى يكونوا مؤمنين"، زعم قوم منهم مقاتل ابن سليمان أنها منسوخة بآية السيف. والصحيح أنها محكمة. وبيان ذلك أن الإيمان لا يصح مع الإكراه لأنه من أعمال القلب، وإنما يتصور الإكراه على النطق لا على العقل.

ذكر الآية الخامسة: قوله تعالى "فمن اهتدى فإنما يهتدي لنفسه ومن ضل فإنما يضل عليها وما أنا عليكم بوكيل". روى أبو صالح عن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما قال هذه الآية منسوخة بآية القتال. وهذا لا يصح عن ابن عباس، وقد بينا أنه لا يتوجه النسخ في مثل هذه الأشياء، لأن معنى الآية ما أنا بوكيل في منعكم من اعتقاد الباطل وحافظ لكم من الهلاك إذا لم تعملوا أنتم لأنفسكم ما يخلصها.

ذكر الآية السادسة: قوله تعالى "واصبر حتى يحكم الله". روى أبو صالح عن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما قال هذه منسوخة بآية القتال. هذا لا يثبت عن ابن عباس، ثم إن الأمر بالصبر ها هنا مذكور إلى غاية وما بعد الغاية يخالف ما قبلها. وقد شرحنا هذا المعنى في البقرة عند قوله "فاعفوا واصفحوا حتى يأتي الله بأمره"، فلا وجه للنسخ في شيء من هذه الآيات


He dismisses the claim of 10:46 without argument.
He says that Muqaatil ibn Sulaymaan, among others, made the claim about 10:99, which he dismisses saying that forced conversion is not possible, but rather forced testimony of faith is.
He says that the claims of 10:108-109 were both made by an invalid narration from Abu-Saalih referring to Ibn Abbaas. This is the third time he said that, so it appears that Abu-Saalih is not a trusted narrator. Ibn Al-Jawzi rejects the claims about 10:108 saying that the verse means that the Prophet (PBUH) is not responsible for the disbelievers nor can save them if they choose disbelief. As for 10:109, he rejects the claim of its abrogation saying that it is timed.

As for 10:46 and 10:99, they are all statements of fact; they cannot be abrogated.
As for 10:108 is a command to say something rational, "The truth has come from your Lord. Whoever finds his way benefits himself and whoever loses his way does so to his own peril. The Prophet, however, is not your manager." No verse, sword verse or otherwise, has ever suggested the opposite!
As for 10:109, it is indeed timed, so it cannot be abrogated.

Al-Khazraji, in his book نفس الصباح في غريب القرآن وناسخه ومنسوخه, volume 1, page 400, adds that Ibn Zayd was one of the scholars who made the claim about 10:99. Dr. Zayd has repeatedly shown, in his book النسخ في القرآن الكريم, that Ibn Zayd was rated very weak by assessment scholars.

Abu-Abdillah Shu`la rejected the claim that 10:109 was abrogated by the sword verse, reported Dr. M. Ibrahim Faaris in page 73 of his presentation of Shu`la's book صفوة الراسخ في علم المنسوخ والناسخ. His argument was that 10:109 has timing in it, meaning "Endure until God commands you to fight."

Dr. Faaris, in his footnotes on page 146 of the same book, explanins who Muqaatil ibn Sulaymaan was. He says that he was an exegete and a narrator but that the people of Hadeeth were wary of his narrations and avoided him.

Who said what:
For:
Ibn Abbaas (claim about 10:108-109 is a doubtful narration, said Ibn Al-Jawzi),
Ibn Zayd,
Zayd (re 10:109, according to Shu`la),
Muqaatil ibn Sulaymaan (only 10:99),
An-Nahhaas (only 10:109),
Ibn Salaama,
Al-Khazraji.

Against:
Ibn Al-Jawzi,
Abu-Abdillah Shu`la (re 10:109),
Dr. Mustafa Zayd,
Dr. M. Ibrahim Faaris (re 10:109).

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2010, 19:14 
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One of the verses claimed abrogated by the sword verse, Ibn Al-Jawzi reports, is,


The claim was made by some exegetes. He writes,

باب ذكر الآيات اللواتي ادعي عليهن النسخ في سورة هود. ذكر الآية الأولى: قوله تعالى "إنما أنت نذير والله على كل شيء وكيل". قال بعض المفسرون معنى هذه الآية اقتصر على إنذاهم من غير قتال ثم نسخ ذلك بآية السيف. والتحقيق أن يقال إنها محكمة لأن المحققين قالوا معناها إنما عليك أن تنذرهم بالوحي لا أن تأتيهم بمقترحهم من الآيات، والوكيل الشهيد


He rejects the claim because, he said, the "scrutineers" of exegesis said that the meaning of the verse is "You only have to warn them with the revelation; you are not to give them the signs they suggest."

That may be, but the verse is a statement of fact; it cannot be abrogated.

Ironically, this verse is another one that banishes the claim of abrogation in its essence. God says that the Prophet cannot, even if he at times felt inclined to, he cannot leave out any verses of the Quran that were revealed to him.

Ibn Salaama, in his book الناسخ والمنسوخ في القرآن الكريم, page 73, actually says...get this...that 11:12 was abrogated in meaning, but not in words, by the sword verse!

Who said what:
For:
Ibn Salaama.

Against:
Ibn Al-Jawzi,
Abu-Abdillah Shu`la,
Dr. Mustafa Zayd.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:5 abrogate 124 verses?
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2010, 20:37 
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Two more verses reported abrogated by the sword verse, Ibn Al-Jawzi said, were


This is what Ibn Al-Jawzi wrote about it,

ذكر الآية الثالثة والرابعة: قوله تعالى "وقل للذين لا يؤمنون اعملوا على مكانتكم إنا عاملون وانتظروا إنا منتظرون". قال بعض المفسرين هاتان الآيتان اقتضتا تركهم على أعمالهم والاقتناع بإنذارهم ثم نسختها بآية السيف. وقال المحققون هذا تهديد ووعيد معناه اعملوا ما أنتم عاملون فستعلمون عاقبة أمركم وانتظروا ما يعدكم الشيطان إنا منتظرون ما يعدنا ربنا وهذا لا ينافي قتالهم فلا وجه للنسخ


His argument to refute it is what the scrutineers of exegesis have said; that the style of the verse is the threat style and that does not conflict with fighting them.

Who said what:
For:
Ibn Hazm Al-Andalusi,
Ibn Salaama.

Against:
At-Tabari (implied, quoted by Dr. Zayd),
Ibn Al-Jawzi,
Dr. Mustafa Zayd.

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