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 Post subject: Verses 4:34-35
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2009, 05:30 
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Suggested translation1,2:


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1This translation may have been updated from the original suggested translation as a result of the discussions that follow.
2Click on the {verse number} of a translation to see other good translations of the verse.

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 4:34-35
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2009, 00:55 
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Quote:
{4:34} Men are in charge of women by [right of] what God has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what God would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, God is ever Exalted and Grand.

I suggest,
{4:34} Men are the caretakers of women, for what God has given more of to some over other and for what they have spent from their riches. So, righteous women are devout, keeping what is private as God has [ordained to be] kept. And those [wives] whose surliness you fear - [first] council them, [then] desert them in beds, and [finally] hit them. But if they have obeyed you, then do not seek against them a way. Verily, God has ever been High, Big.

Quote:
{4:35} And if you fear dissension between the two, send an arbitrator from his people and an arbitrator from her people. If they both desire reconciliation, God will cause it between them. Indeed, God is ever Knowing and Acquainted [with all things].

I suggest,
{4:35} And if you have feared dissension between the two of them, then send off an arbitrator from his people and an arbitrator from her people. If they both desire reconciliation, God [will] cause agreement between them. Verily, God has ever been All-Knowing, Dexterous.

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 4:34-35
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2009, 09:29 
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Linguistic wrote:
Quote:
{4:34} Men are in charge of women by [right of] what God has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what God would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, God is ever Exalted and Grand.

I suggest,
{4:34} Men are the caretakers of women, for what God has given more of to some over other and for what they have spent from their riches. So, righteous women are devout, keeping what is private as God has [ordained to be] kept. And those [wives] whose surliness you fear - [first] council them, [then] desert them in beds, and [finally] hit them. But if they have obeyed you, then do not seek against them a way. Verily, God has ever been High, Big.

It is very difficult to translate this verse without injecting an "opinion" in the translation. I feel that "Men are in charge of women by [right of] what God has given one over the other" completely went overboard in injecting opinion. On the other hand, I feel that "Men are the caretakers of women," also injects an opinion. The reason is because although "qawwamoon" has the meaning of upholding or taking care of, the preposition that follows raises a question about this meaning since it says "ala-lnisa'a" not "bi-lnisa'a"

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 4:34-35
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2009, 13:50 
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Pragmatic wrote:
It is very difficult to translate this verse without injecting an "opinion" in the translation. I feel that "Men are in charge of women by [right of] what God has given one over the other" completely went overboard in injecting opinion. On the other hand, I feel that "Men are the caretakers of women," also injects an opinion. The reason is because although "qawwamoon" has the meaning of upholding or taking care of, the preposition that follows raises a question about this meaning since it says "ala-lnisa'a" not "bi-lnisa'a"

Consider

There you find God using the same word to describe His constant monitoring, sustaining and protection of every soul. I humbly think that "caretaker" expresses all that very well.

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 4:34-35
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2009, 04:51 
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Linguistic wrote:
There you find God using the same word to describe His constant monitoring, sustaining and protection of every soul. I humbly think that "caretaker" expresses all that very well.

This is a good reference, because the meaning here is not "controversial." Let us discuss the meaning in 13:33 then. I maintain that the expression here captures both care and 'authority'. Maybe authority is not the right word, but here is the crux of it. The expression in 4:34 conveys to me an obligation on men and an obligation on women. The original translation singles out the obligation on women, while the suggested translation singles out the obligation on men.

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 4:34-35
PostPosted: 14 Sep 2009, 01:12 
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Pragmatic wrote:
This is a good reference, because the meaning here is not "controversial." Let us discuss the meaning in 13:33 then. I maintain that the expression here captures both care and 'authority'. Maybe authority is not the right word, but here is the crux of it. The expression in 4:34 conveys to me an obligation on men and an obligation on women. The original translation singles out the obligation on women, while the suggested translation singles out the obligation on men.

I don't quite see that, since the immediate sentences to follow explain well the reciprocation obligation on women. In other words, God is instructing men to take care of women and women to accept that arrangement.

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 4:34-35
PostPosted: 14 Sep 2009, 06:46 
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Linguistic wrote:
Pragmatic wrote:
This is a good reference, because the meaning here is not "controversial." Let us discuss the meaning in 13:33 then. I maintain that the expression here captures both care and 'authority'. Maybe authority is not the right word, but here is the crux of it. The expression in 4:34 conveys to me an obligation on men and an obligation on women. The original translation singles out the obligation on women, while the suggested translation singles out the obligation on men.

I don't quite see that, since the immediate sentences to follow explain well the reciprocation obligation on women. In other words, God is instructing men to take care of women and women to accept that arrangement.

OK, I can see the other point of view. Let me try to find a translation that does not promote one view or the other. Something like "Men are charged with women."

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