TheMostReadBook.org

An English translation of the Quran that is as close as possible to the Arabic sacred text
View active topics
  Verse(s):    
View unanswered posts





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: الطاغوت /æʈ,ʈa:,ɣu:t/
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2009, 11:12 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1839
Location: USA
Admin note: This topic was split from a discussion of the translation of 2:256-257. the discussion started with,

Linguistic wrote:
الطاغوت is another one of those words that are not easy to translate. It's derived from a verb that means "to exceed" or "overflow." So, the word actually means the forces that exceed their bounds or authority, such as the devil, tyrants, promoters of false gods, etc. I'm not sure what one word or short phrase conveys that meaning, but I don't want to leave the translation with an unexplained transliteration. The English reader won't know what it means!

I looked into it a bit, and I realized that it is actually a plural.

which leads me to suggest "Transgressors" or "Transgressives" as an opening gambit.

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Verses 2:256-257
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2009, 14:13 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2009, 16:10
Posts: 4558
Location: USA
Pragmatic wrote:
Linguistic wrote:
الطاغوت is another one of those words that are not easy to translate.

I looked into it a bit, and I realized that it is actually a plural.
...
which leads me to suggest "Transgressors" or "Transgressives" as an opening gambit.

That would work, except that I kinda wanted to reserve "transgressors" to translate المعتدين.

_________________
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Verses 2:256-257
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2009, 20:07 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1839
Location: USA
Linguistic wrote:
I kinda wanted to reserve "transgressors" to translate المعتدين.

Interestingly, I would translate المعتدين as "aggressors."

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Verses 2:256-257
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2009, 00:37 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2009, 16:10
Posts: 4558
Location: USA
Pragmatic wrote:
Linguistic wrote:
I kinda wanted to reserve "transgressors" to translate المعتدين.

Interestingly, I would translate المعتدين as "aggressors."

Well, the prefix "trans", in "transgress", perfectly matches the root of the word المعتدين. That root is the verb (and article) عدا which means to skip over, or as an article it means "away from" or "beyond."

That said, I now realize that the word that would be translated "transgressors" is المتعدين! So, I agree with your choices.

To summarize:
  • We shall attempt to translate المعتدين as "aggressors" wherever suitable,
  • We can translate الطاغوت to "Transgressors" or "Transgressives."

I'm going to study the significance of the suffix "وت" and the derivation pattern فعلوت which should shed more light on how to translate الطاغوت.

_________________
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Verses 2:256-257
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2009, 22:52 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1839
Location: USA
Linguistic wrote:
I'm going to study the significance of the suffix "وت" and the derivation pattern فعلوت which should shed more light on how to translate الطاغوت.

Please do.

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: الطاغوت /æʈ,ʈa:,ɣu:t/
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2009, 16:23 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2009, 16:10
Posts: 4558
Location: USA
I looked into the possibility that the derivation pattern (وزن) of Taaghoot is FAA`OOT or FAA`ULT. That would be inconsistent with similar words such as لاهوت, جبروت and ملكوت. FAA`OOT is invalid because it omits an intrinsic letter, the laam.

جبروت and ملكوت are for sure of the pattern FA`ALOOT. However, Taaghoot comes from tt-gh-a (طغى) so the alif in Taaghoot is not part of the verb. I also found out that there's no such verb root as ط-ي-غ.

Thus, the only conclusion is that this particular word must be an exception to the rules. Either the final "t" is a transformation from the root ى making the derivation pattern FAA`OOL, or the derivation pattern is a non-standard FAA`OOT. I lean toward the former.

_________________
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: الطاغوت /æʈ,ʈa:,ɣu:t/
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2009, 16:24 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2009, 16:10
Posts: 4558
Location: USA
Another translation idea just occurred to me: Cults!

_________________
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
It is currently 28 Mar 2024, 21:52

All times are UTC

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group