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 Post subject: Verses 12:35-36
PostPosted: 06 Jun 2009, 07:46 
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Suggested translation1,2:


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1This translation may have been updated from the original suggested translation as a result of the discussions that follow.
2Click on the {verse number} of a translation to see other good translations of the verse.

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 12:35-36
PostPosted: 03 Feb 2010, 02:22 
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Quote:
{12:35} Then it appeared to them after they had seen the signs that al-Azeez should surely imprison him for a time.

Not only is transliteration unnecessary, it's doubly so when the word isn't even there in the verse. I suggest,
{12:35} Then it looked to them, after they have seen the signs [of Joseph's innocence], that they should imprison him for a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 12:35-36
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2010, 07:59 
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Linguistic wrote:
Not only is transliteration unnecessary, it's doubly so when the word isn't even there in the verse. I suggest,
{12:35} Then it looked to them, after they have seen the signs [of Joseph's innocence], that they should imprison him for a while.

Agreed, and they didn't even treat it as an interjection!

I would translate بدا as "occurred" rather than "looked" if it is the verb from which "بداء" is derived (of which I am not sure).

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 12:35-36
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2010, 08:04 
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{12:36} And there entered the prison with him two young men. One of them said, "Indeed, I have seen myself [in a dream] pressing wine." The other said, "Indeed, I have seen myself carrying upon my head [some] bread, from which the birds were eating. Inform us of its interpretation; indeed, we see you to be of those who do good."

It seems to me that "Indeed" (or alternatively "verily") is a bit of an overstatement. The article إن is used in Arabic routinely to start a nominal sentence, and the emphasis inferred from it, if any, is pretty mild. Both indeed and verily are less often used in normal English, so their degree of emphasis is more pronounced.

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 12:35-36
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2010, 17:43 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Agreed, and they didn't even treat it as an interjection!

I would translate بدا as "occurred" rather than "looked" if it is the verb from which "بداء" is derived (of which I am not sure).

I like "occurred" here. Thanks. Let's make it,
{12:35} Then it occurred to them, after they have seen the signs [of Joseph's innocence], that they should imprison him for a while.

The verb بدا means "to appear" and it implies that something was hidden or not obvious and became apparent or clear. Its noun بداء, therefore, means realization of something that was not noticed or understood before, or the manifestation of something that was obscured.

Pragmatic wrote:
It seems to me that "Indeed" (or alternatively "verily") is a bit of an overstatement. The article إن is used in Arabic routinely to start a nominal sentence, and the emphasis inferred from it, if any, is pretty mild. Both indeed and verily are less often used in normal English, so their degree of emphasis is more pronounced.

I agree about the level of emphasis, but it is emphasis. A nominal sentence can be constructed in Arabic without the article إنَّ, thus we must translate the emphasis, however mild, somehow. In the case of 12:36, I'd say that "verily" serves the purpose better than "indeed", because the man wanted to say that he was telling the truth about the dream he saw. So, how about:
{12:36} And there entered the prison with him two young men. One of them said, "I do see myself [in a dream] pressing wine." The other said, "I do see myself [in a dream] carrying upon my head [some] bread, [while] birds eat from it. Inform us of its interpretation; indeed, we see you to be of those who do good."

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 12:35-36
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2010, 19:17 
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Linguistic wrote:
I agree about the level of emphasis, but it is emphasis. A nominal sentence can be constructed in Arabic without the article إنَّ, thus we must translate the emphasis, however mild, somehow. In the case of 12:36, I'd say that "verily" serves the purpose better than "indeed", because the man wanted to say that he was telling the truth about the dream he saw. So, how about:
{12:36} And there entered the prison with him two young men. One of them said, "I do see myself [in a dream] pressing wine." The other said, "I do see myself [in a dream] carrying upon my head [some] bread, [while] birds eat from it. Inform us of its interpretation; indeed, we see you to be of those who do good."

Adding "do" is an excellent way of mild emphasis!

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