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 Post subject: Verses 12:89-92
PostPosted: 06 Jun 2009, 07:38 
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Suggested translation1,2:


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1This translation may have been updated from the original suggested translation as a result of the discussions that follow.
2Click on the {verse number} of a translation to see other good translations of the verse.

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 12:89-92
PostPosted: 05 Feb 2010, 03:11 
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Quote:
{12:90} They said, "Are you indeed Joseph?" He said "I am Joseph, and this is my brother. God has certainly favored us. Indeed, he who fears God and is patient, then indeed, God does not allow to be lost the reward of those who do good."

I suggest,
{12:90} They said, "Are you indeed, you are Joseph?" He said "I am Joseph, and this my brother - God has certainly bestowed [favor] upon us. Indeed, he who watches out for God and is patient, then indeed, God does not squander the reward of the benevolent."

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 12:89-92
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2010, 05:51 
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Linguistic wrote:
I suggest,
{12:90} They said, "Are you indeed, you are Joseph?" He said "I am Joseph, and this my brother - God has certainly bestowed [favor] upon us. Indeed, he who watches out for God and is patient, then indeed, God does not squander the reward of the benevolent."

"Are you indeed, you are Joseph?" is an excellent translation.

Is "is" inadvertently or deliberately missing from "and this my brother"?

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 12:89-92
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2010, 06:01 
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Quote:
{12:89} He said, "Do you know what you did with Joseph and his brother when you were ignorant?"

I suggest
{12:89} He said, "Do you know what you did with Joseph and his brother as you were ignorant?"

Quote:
{12:91} They said, "By God, certainly has God preferred you over us, and indeed, we have been sinners."

I suggest
{12:91} They said, "By God, certainly God has preferred you over us, and indeed, we have been sinners."

Quote:
{12:92} He said, "No blame will there be upon you today. God will forgive you; and He is the most merciful of the merciful."

I suggest
{12:92} He said, "No blame will there be upon you today. God forgive you; and He is the most merciful of the merciful."

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 12:89-92
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2010, 16:18 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Linguistic wrote:
I suggest,
{12:90} They said, "Are you indeed, you are Joseph?" He said "I am Joseph, and this my brother - God has certainly bestowed [favor] upon us. Indeed, he who watches out for God and is patient, then indeed, God does not squander the reward of the benevolent."

"Are you indeed, you are Joseph?" is an excellent translation.

Is "is" inadvertently or deliberately missing from "and this my brother"?

It is deliberately missing because the Arabic is not a nominal sentence of subject and predicate, but rather a demonstrative pronoun followed by an apposition. His brothers already know that Benjamin is his brother :)

Thanks for the compliment. You have contributed excellent translations too, especially in this Chapter.

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 12:89-92
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2010, 16:49 
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Linguistic wrote:
It is deliberately missing because the Arabic is not a nominal sentence of subject and predicate, but rather a demonstrative pronoun followed by an apposition. His brothers already know that Benjamin is his brother :)

I see the possibility. Let me argue for another possibility. It could be a nominal sentence, elaborating the newly discovered fact. The reason I opt for this possibility is that, if this was a listing of those who are the object of "God has bestowed favor upon us" then the first part would have been "I, Joseph" rather than "I am Joseph."

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 12:89-92
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2010, 17:46 
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Pragmatic wrote:
I see the possibility. Let me argue for another possibility. It could be a nominal sentence, elaborating the newly discovered fact. The reason I opt for this possibility is that, if this was a listing of those who are the object of "God has bestowed favor upon us" then the first part would have been "I, Joseph" rather than "I am Joseph."

So, you're saying the meaning is,
"I, Joseph, and this, my brother - God has bestowed favor upon us..."
In this case, there are two apposition nouns: "Joseph" and "my brother."

It is possible, but I suspect that the first part means "I am Joseph" because it's a reply to their question: "Are you indeed, are you Joseph?"

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 Post subject: Re: Verses 12:89-92
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2010, 18:10 
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Linguistic wrote:
So, you're saying the meaning is,
"I, Joseph, and this, my brother - God has bestowed favor upon us..."
In this case, there are two apposition nouns: "Joseph" and "my brother."

It is possible, but I suspect that the first part means "I am Joseph" because it's a reply to their question: "Are you indeed, are you Joseph?"

In my mind, the most plausible meaning is actually:

I am Joseph and this is my brother. God has bestowed favor upon us..."

The redundancy in the first sentence is a warranted emphasis/elaboration given the novelty of the news.

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