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 Post subject: Did 9:80 abrogate 4:64?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 04:07 
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Ibn Al-Jawzi reports that people have claimed that

was abrogated by


Here is what Ibn Al-Jawzi writes about this case,

ذكر الآية السابعة عشرة: قوله تعالى "ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاؤوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما". قال المفسرون اختصم يهودي وقيل المؤمن أن تكون الحكومة بين يدي الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم فأبى المنافق، فنزل قوله تعالى "يريدون أن يتحاكموا إلى الطاغوت" إلى هذه الآية. وكان معنى هذه الآية: ولو أن المنافقين جاؤك فاستغفروا من صنيعهم واستغفر لهم الرسول. وقد زعم بعض منتحلي التفسير أن هذه الآية نسخت بقوله "استغفر لهم أو لا تستغفر لهم إن تستغفر لهم سبعين مرة فلن يغفر الله لهم". وهذا قول مرذول لأنه إنما قيل "فلن يغفر الله لهم" لإصرارهم على النفاق، فأما إذا جاؤا فاستغفروا واستغفر لهم الرسول فقد ارتفع الإصرار فلا وجه للنسخ


He correctly refutes the claim by explaining that 9:80 is about those who do not repent from their hypocrisy, while 4:64 is about those who do.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:80 abrogate 4:64?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 05:15 
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I agree with the argument. In addition, there is an interesting, more general point. The use of "reasons for revelation" (which I like to call "circumstances at the time of revelation") in interpreting the verse is an established method. However, if it is used as part of an abrogation claim, then I take issue. In my mind, this is the same as using Sunna to abrogate Quran, since the "reasons for revelation" are add-on's to the verse that are not of the same level of authenticity, or authority, as the verse itself.

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 Post subject: Who said what
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010, 05:29 
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For:
Ibn Hazm Al-Andalusi,
Ibn Salaama,
Al-Khazraji.

Against:
Ibn Al-Jawzi,
Ar-Raazi, As-Saawi (according to Az-Zalmi),
Dr. Mustafa Zayd,
Dr. Ahmad Hijaazi As-Saqqa,
Dr. Az-Zalmi.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:80 abrogate 4:64?
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 05:59 
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Dr. Az-Zalmi, in his book التبيان لرفع غموض النسخ في القرآن, pages 220-222, refutes this case on the basis of no contradiction. He says the condition in 4:64 is quitting hypocrisy while the condition in 9:80 is insistence on hypocrisy.

He then quotes Ar-Raazi who asked himself the question: Why was it necessary, in 4:64, that the hypocrites seek the Prophet's forgiveness, not just God's? He answers his own question saying that the circumstance of revelation was, as mentioned in 4:60, that the hypocrites refused to make the Prophet their arbiter and sought arbitration in Taaghoot. So, they had to apologize to the Prophet and seek his forgiveness too.

Here is verse 4:60 for reference,

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:80 abrogate 4:64?
PostPosted: 13 Aug 2010, 13:15 
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Al-Khazraji, in his book نفس الصباح في غريب القرآن وناسخه ومنسوخه, volume 1, page 238, reports this case and says that after 9:80 was revealed, the Prophet said, "I will ask more than seventy times" then God revealed

And thus, he said, 63:6 abrogated 9:80 too. He quoted Ibn Salaama saying that as well.

So, what do they really mean? That God initially gave the hypocrites a chance to ask the Prophet and ask God for forgiveness and assured them that He is Forgiving and Merciful, then He withdrew the offer, even after the Prophet continued to offer it? The matter is simple: those who seek forgiveness will be forgiven, those who insist on sin will not. That's not too hard is to figure out, is it?

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