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 Post subject: Re: Inconsistencies
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2010, 02:09 
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Linguistic wrote:
So, why didn't Al-Areedh apply his own argument? His answer is, get this, "No other scholar said it!"

That, to me, means that he believes that consensus can abrogate the Quran. Yet, he shows in his book why it can't. Another inconsistency.

It's not easy being pro-abrogation!

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 Post subject: Re: Inconsistencies
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2010, 03:25 
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Linguistic wrote:
Ali Hasan Al-Areedh, in his book فتح المنان في نسخ القرآن, says that if there is an explanation or interpretation that makes it possible to comply with two verses that seem contradictory, then there is no cause for an abrogation claim. I certainly agree, and this is precisely our validation rule #13.

A running theme in Al-Jabri's book, and a specific statement on page 65, argue this exact point. Al-Jabri bases his anti-abrogation stand on the ability to exhaustively reconcile the verses of each abrogation claim (the part of the book that deals with individual abrogation claims should be interesting). He also points out the inconsistency of pro-abrogation scholars who set rules for abrogation then violated them when it came to considering specific abrogation claims.

PS: There are no refuted abrogation claims in Al-Jabri's book (the second edition), so probably they were in the first edition and were omitted in the second edition that concentrates on rebuttal of attacks on the first edition.

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 Post subject: Re: Inconsistencies
PostPosted: 14 May 2010, 07:15 
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In his book, Nada politely points out an inconsistency, or a discrepancy, by Al-Qortobi in his exegesis regarding the interpretation of 16:101. Al-Qortobi reportedly mentions the attacks of the Jews and the change of the prayers direction as circumstances of revelation. Nada points out that the verse was revealed in Mecca, patently before the change of the direction of the prayers and well before the Jews started their attacks in Medina. Nada also points out that the original direction of the prayers was not decreed by a verse, so there is no substitution of verses as it relates to the change.

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 Post subject: Re: Inconsistencies
PostPosted: 17 May 2010, 17:03 
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In his book الناسخ والمنسوخ بين الإثبات والنفي, pages 31-32, Al-Jabri points out how Ibn Hazm Az-Zhaahiri was inconsistent about naskh in his book الإحكام في أصول الأحكام. He mentions several questions Ibn Hazm asked himself about abrogation and could not answer! He pointed out how Ibn Hazm then concluded, rather than answering, that abrogation may be true for two reasons (which Al-Jabri calls "hangers"),

  1. That God's reasons are His. We may not know them but we still have to obey what He says. Al-Jabri correctly replies that while that is true, there is not one verse where God says "this verse abrogated that other verse." If He did, we indeed would have to comply.
  2. That God can do whatever He wills. Al-Jabri correctly replies that while that is true, God does not do many things that He is able to do, for instance, He does not wrong His creatures though He could if He wanted to! The fact that He can abrogate does not mean He did.

Al-Jabri goes on to say that Ibn Hazm just had to go along with the prevailing opinion of scholars of his time, otherwise much of what he wrote would logically lead him to oppose the abrogation doctrine.

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 Post subject: Re: Scholars opinions about abrogation
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2010, 04:33 
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Jamaal `Ataaya has studied the work of Abdul`Azeem Az-Zurqaai in detail and often quotes his book مناهل العرفان in his own book حقيقة النسخ وطلاقة النص في القرآن. On page 89, he quotes Az-Zurqaani's book (Volume 2, page 210) saying that none of the following can be used to determine abrogation,

  • The opinion of a Sahaabi, since he could be wrong.
  • Analysis of an analyst, without an explicit, authentic text.
  • Opinion of an exegete, without an explicit, authentic text.
  • The order of verses in the bound volume of the Quran, because it is different from the revelation order.

I fully agree. And it leaves no way to determine abrogation! Because neither God, nor His Messenger have ever said "this verse is now abrogated by this other verse." Yet, Az-Zurqaani was a huge advocate of abrogation and has approved 6-9 claims. Why?

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 Post subject: Re: Inconsistencies
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2010, 19:33 
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In his book نفس الصباح في غريب القرآن وناسخه ومنسوخه, volume 1, page 212, author Al-Khazraji reports the case claiming abrogation of 2:183. He said that "for some people 2:183 was abrogated and with others it is abrogating." Then, in the footnotes, he refers the reader to several books, one of which is called الإيضاح by Makki! If you didn't get the irony, the word الإيضاح means elucidation. How lucid is this case if we don't even know if the verse was abrogated or was abrogating?

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 Post subject: Re: Scholars opinions about abrogation
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2010, 11:28 
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Linguistic wrote:
none of the following can be used to determine abrogation,
  • The opinion of a Sahaabi, since he could be wrong.
  • Analysis of an analyst, without an explicit, authentic text.
  • Opinion of an exegete, without an explicit, authentic text.
  • The order of verses in the bound volume of the Quran, because it is different from the revelation order.

Otherwise, it's OK. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Inconsistencies
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2010, 11:30 
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Linguistic wrote:
In his book نفس الصباح في غريب القرآن وناسخه ومنسوخه, volume 1, page 212, author Al-Khazraji reports the case claiming abrogation of 2:183. He said that "for some people 2:183 was abrogated and with others it is abrogating." Then, in the footnotes, he refers the reader to several books, one of which is called الإيضاح by Makki! If you didn't get the irony, the word الإيضاح means elucidation. How lucid is this case if we don't even know if the verse was abrogated or was abrogating?

It is notable how people who are used to not being contested can produce totally vulnerable arguments without any concern.

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 Post subject: Conflicting opinions of scholars
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2010, 04:12 
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In this post, I intend to tally all the conflicting narrations of scholars about the same abrogation claim. That is, one report says they supported the claim and another says that they rejected it. I know before I start that Abdullah ibn Abbaas, may God have been pleased with him, will take the lion's share of this tally. Personally, from what I read so far, I doubt the authenticity of most narrations attributed to him.

Conflicting narrations:
Ibn `Abbaas:
5:45/2:178, 4:11-12/2:180, 2:185/2:184, 17:33/2:194, 9:103/2:219 5:5/2:221, 2:286/2:284, 4:10/4:6, 4:11/4:8, 2:220/4:10, 65:1/4:24, 4:25/4:25, 33:6/4:33, 9:91/4:71, 9:5/4:80, 25:70/4:93, 9:5/47:4, 9:5/5:2, 65:2/5:106-108, 9:60/6:141, 8:66/8:15-16, 8:66/8:65, 24:62/9:44, 9:113/17:24, 2:227/26:224, 33:50/33:52, 34:47/42:23, 48:2/46:9, 58:13/58:12, 8:41/59:7, 9:1-11/60:8

`Umar ibn Al-Khattaab:
Sunna/24:2

Qataada:
9:5/2:109, 48:2/46:9

Mujaahid:
9:5/47:4, 9:5/5:2, 2:286/2:284, Analysis/33:44

Ad-Dhahhaak:
4:11-12/2:180, 9:5/2:256, 9:5/51:54, 9:5/74:4,

Al-Hasan Al-Basri:
2:185/2:184, 2:282/2:282, 4:11/4:8, 5:5/6:121, 9:60/6:141

`Aa'isha bint Abi-Bakr:
2:286/2:284, 73:20/73:1-4

`Ataa' ibn Abi-Rabaah:
2:185/2:184, 4:11/4:8, 5:49/5:42

Sa`eed ibn Jabeer:
8:57/47:4

Ash-Shaafi`i:
5:49/5:42

"The majority!":
9:5/25:63,

In addition, I'd like to also tally the abrogation claims made by a narration whose authenticity scholars have cast doubt on. Here is the list I could gather:

Doubtful narrations:
17:33/2:194 (Ibn Abbaas/Ibn Al-Jawzi), 9:91/4:71 (Ibn Abbaas/Al-Khazraji), 9:5/6:66 (Ibn Abbaas/Ar-Raazi), 9:5/10:41 (Ibn Abbaas/Ibn Al-Jawzi), 9:5/10:108-109 (Ibn Abbaas/Ibn Al-Jawzi), 4:29/4:29 (Ibn Abbaas/Al-Qurtubi), 65:2/5:106-108 (Abu-Moosa/Ibn Salaam), 9:36/6:66-67 (Ibn Abbaas/Majority), 17:18/42:20 (Ibn Abbaas/Mustafa Zayd)

Another tally I'd like to keep is a tally of abrogation claims made by a notable scholar, Ibn Abbaas most likely, which the majority of scholars have rejected. So, here is that list:

Consensus against an opinion of a Sahaabi:
3:85/2:62 (Ibn Abbaas), 9:29/2:109 (Ibn Abbaas, Ibn Mas`ood, Qataada) 17:33/2:194 (Ibn Abbaas), 9:60/2:219 (Ibn Abbaas), 2:229/2:229 (Ibn Abbaas), 2:233/2:233 (Maalik), 2:234/2:240 (Ali, Mujaahid, Al-Bukhaari, Ibn Taymiya), 65:4/2:240 (Ali), 4:48/4:18 (Ibn Abbaas), 65:1/4:24 (Ibn Abbaas), 9:5/4:63 (Ibn Abbaas), 9:91/4:71 (Ibn Abbaas), 9:5/5:2 (Ash-Sha`bi, Al-Hasan), 9:36/6:66-67 (Ibn Abbaas), 9:5/6:70 (Ibn Abbaas, Qataada, At-Tabari), 9:5/6:106-107 (Ibn Abbaas), 2:220/6:152 (Qataada), 9:5/7:199 (Ibn Abbaas), 8:34/8:33 (Ibn Abbaas, Al-Hasan), 9:29/8:61 (Ibn Abbaas, Qataada, Mujaahid, Al-Hasan), 47:4/8:67 (Ibn Abbaas, Mujaahid), 9:103/9:34 (Umar ibn Abdil-Azeez), 9:5/16:127 (Ibn Abbaas), 24:29/24:27 (Ibn Abbaas, Ikrima, Adh-Dhahhaak, Al-Hasan), 4:93/25:68-70 (Ibn Abbaas, Zayd ibn Thaabit), Sunna/39:33 (Al-Hasan), 17:18/42:20 (Ibn Abbaas), 52:21/53:39 (Ibn Abbaas)

One more tally I'd like to keep is of cases where consensus was claimed but that simply wasn't so! Here is a list I could find:

Untrue claims of consensus:
2:286/2:284 (Ibn Katheer),
5:90/16:67 (Abdul-Qaahir Al-Baghdaadi/Mustafa Zayd), 33:50/33:52 (Abdul-Qaahir Al-Baghdaadi/Mustafa Zayd, Consensus/65:2 (Sayyid Saabiq)

Finally, I'd like to keep a tally of all abrogation claims where no narration was quoted that can be attributed to a Sahaabi or higher:

Abrogation claims without a narration:
4:18/4:17, 8:39-40/8:38

This is a work in progress...

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 Post subject: Re: Conflicting opinions of scholars
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2010, 05:27 
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Linguistic wrote:
In this post, I intend to tally all the conflicting narrations of scholars about the same abrogation claim. That is, one report says they supported the claim and another says that they rejected it.

Excellent idea. The factual tallies are becoming a significant part of this project.

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