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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 29 May 2010, 18:47 
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Linguistic wrote:
I draw your attention to the contexts of 40:56 and 40:69 which suggest verse. Notice that 40:53 speaks of the Book sent to the Children of Israel, and that 40:70 explicitly mentions the Book

Totally agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2010, 04:12 
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God tells us that the Prophet, peace be upon him, would not say about God anything He did not authorize, and what God would do if he did! Consider,

If that punishment may fall upon the Prophet himself for just saying "God said" when God didn't, then what about ordinary mortals, some of whom quite often in their books said very casually نسخها الله تعالى بقوله كذا (God, may He be exalted, abrogated it by saying ...)? It is astonishing to me that they would say that without a revelation given to them.

How I wish they had revised or recalled their books after reading,

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2010, 04:26 
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Linguistic wrote:
God tells us that the Prophet, peace be upon him, would not say about God anything He did not authorize, and what God would do if he did! Consider,

If that punishment may fall upon the Prophet himself for just saying "God said" when God didn't, then what about ordinary mortals, some of whom quite often in their books said very casually نسخها الله تعالى بقوله كذا (God, may He be exalted, abrogated it by saying ...)? Did they receive special revelation we're not aware of?

Very nicely put (characterizing the statement نسخها الله تعالى بقوله كذا as fitting the expression in 69:44), and should be included in the epilogue of the writeup, without being explicit about the names of the scholars.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2010, 20:58 
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In refuting the claim that 4:11-12 abrogated 2:180, Husaam Al-Ghaali, in his book بالحجة والبرهان لا نسخ في القرآن, pages 69-70, quotes Rasheed Ridha from his exegesis Al-Manaar saying (my translation),
M. Rasheed Ridha wrote:
Do not be of the reckless who risk saying there is abrogation and thus you would leave behind what God has written upon you, without an excuse.

Indeed, claims of abrogation are an amazing dare.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 21 Jun 2010, 22:30 
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On page 60 of his book, Al-Zalmi uses an argument that was also mentioned in other books, which is

If it was needed to update the religion in the short 23 years of revelation, then it must be far more needed to update the religion in the 14 centuries since.

This argument is either posed as evidence against abrogation, or as a consequence of abrogation, or as inappropriate attack by enemies. I just want to point out that I fundamentally disagree with the argument itself. There are two characteristics of the '23 years' that are unique to them which makes change credible during that period but not after. The static/dynamic aspect is the obvious characteristic (the religion was changing, abrogation or not, because it was being revealed incrementally). The other is that this was a period of changing an existing religion (or lack thereof) and that calls for certain measures that are not applicable in a steady state, e.g., changing rules for visiting the graves.

I don't see the argument as valid for any of the purposes it is used for, whether pro- or anti- abrogation, and whether pro- or anti- religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 23 Jun 2010, 20:46 
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In Chapter 17, God says,

Which is better speech, abrogation or non-abrogation? Is it better speech to say that God emphasized peaceful co-existence in over a hundred verses, then cancels all that in one verse, 9:5, or is it better speech to say that God means what He says and the scholars who claimed abrogation by the sword verse may have misunderstood the verse?

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2010, 06:01 
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Al-Ghaali, on page 211 of his book بالحجة والبرهان لا نسخ في القرآن, laments the shameful war between supporters of Abdullah ibn Az-Zubayr and supporters of Banu Umayya, to the point that Al-Hajjaaj catapulted the Ka`ba for three days until parts of it were demolished. The war ended by crucifying Ibn Az-Zubayr and leaving his dead body suspended in the court of the Sacrosanct Mosque! Only after Ibn Az-Zubar's wife, Asmaa' bint Abi-Bakr begged, her husband's corpse was removed and buried!

Such abhorrent act would not have happened unless Banu Umayya felt they did not have to comply with God's command in 2:191,

or if they believed that command was abrogated.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2010, 17:29 
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Linguistic wrote:
Such abhorrent act would not have happened unless Banu Umayya felt they did not have to comply with God's command in 2:191

The understatement of the century. IMHO, such abhorrent act would not have happened if the perpetrators had any claim to being human, let alone being Muslims.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2010, 18:35 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Linguistic wrote:
Such abhorrent act would not have happened unless Banu Umayya felt they did not have to comply with God's command in 2:191

The understatement of the century. IMHO, such abhorrent act would not have happened if the perpetrators had any claim to being human, let alone being Muslims.

Al-Ghaali gives more details about this atrocity, on page 214 of his book بالحجة والبرهان لا نسخ في القرآن. It took place during the reign of Al-Waleed ibn Abdil-Malik in the month of Zhul-Hijja! In fact, Muslims who sided with Ibn Az-Zubayr were surrounded such that they could not stand at Arafaat or throw the pebbles. They were prevented from performing the pilgrimage that year!!

If Al-Hajjaaj was a homicidal maniac, what is the excuse of Ibn Abdil-Malik? He was in charge and let it all happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2010, 21:29 
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Linguistic wrote:
If Al-Hajjaaj was a homicidal maniac, what is the excuse of Ibn Abdil-Malik? He was in charge and let it all happen.

History has so many examples of Haamaan running the show while Pharaoh is being duped. However, we all know the judgment on both Pharaoh and Haamaan. Delegating authority does not mean delegating responsibility.

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