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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2010, 04:53 
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Jamaal `Ataaya, in his book حقيقة النسخ وطلاقة النص في القرآن, page 91, quotes Ibn Abdil-Barr saying in his book جامع بيان العلم وفضله, volume 2, page 35, that the knowledge of the abrogated and the abrogating is mandatory on every scholar lest he should mandate on people what God has not mandated or forbid them what God has not forbidden them. How true, and we've shown in this topic, as well the topic "Consequences of non-abrogation" how harmful the doctrine of abrogation is. I wonder if the reverend scholar Ibn Abdil-Barr has addressed the fact that scholars have not agreed that abrogation has occurred, what was abrogated or what abrogated it. Thus, the end result is a vague juristic system. Is that what the Messenger of God left for us? God forbid! He left us with a robust, well-defined, explicit juristic system in which nothing was abrogated or can be abrogated and every ruling in it is final.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2010, 10:58 
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Linguistic wrote:
Indeed, it is hard to believe that so many wonderful people would all agree on a doctrine that is so shaky and easy to disprove unless they simply did not understand the verses they thought were abrogated.

Here is my analysis. Abrogation seemed to well-intentioned people like the lesser of two evils, the other being contradiction. What created the perception of contradiction may have been the strict adherence to opinions of preceding (fallible) individuals, and at times the acceptance of poorly attributed hadeeths. The culture did not encourage (one may even say did not tolerate) dissent, so that left in place a legacy of opinions and narrations that could have been easily refuted.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 13 Aug 2010, 01:42 
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In refuting the case of 24:61/4:29, Al-Khazraji, in his book نفس الصباح في غريب القرآن وناسخه ومنسوخه, volume 1, pages 280-281, quotes Makki from his book الإيضاح strongly criticizing Al-Qaasim ibn Salaam for agreeing to that claim. He wrote (my translation and emphasis),

Makki wrote:
It is a wonder that Abu-`Ubayd (Al-Qaasim ibn Salaam) would point to that [weak narration from Ibn Abbaas] and allows it, while he is one of the rabbis of the community. It is obvious that this verse (4:29) cannot be abrogated, for abrogating allows what was forbidden and forbids what was allowed. Consuming people's property with falsehood is not allowed in the religion of God, nor by any text or analogy. No one we know of has interpreted الباطل as anything but "falsehood". The pro-abrogation folk must furnish proof to the other interpretation, but we never heard one from them.

Indeed. There is no authority given to any scholar to claim abrogation of any verse, when abrogation means allowing what was forbidden and forbidding what was allowed. Doing so, in modern parlance, is called "playing God."

But once again, we are faced with inconsistencies, since both Makki and Al-Khazraji went on to make many abrogation claims themselves in the same books where they wrote that criticism of Ibn Salaam!

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2010, 13:50 
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Between the rulings on inheritance (4:11-12) and the rulings on homosexuality (4:15-16), both claimed abrogated by many scholars, God makes the point clear that His rulings are His limits that must never be infringed on, that those who do will be permanently tormented in Hell,

I don't know about the rest of you, but if I were a pro-abrogation scholar, I'd cringe and panic after reading those two verses and would repent instantly from such a false doctrine as the abrogation doctrine.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2010, 08:56 
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Linguistic wrote:
Between the rulings on inheritance (4:11-12) and the rulings on homosexuality (4:15-16), both claimed abrogated by many scholars, God makes the point clear that His rulings are His limits that must never be infringed on, that those who do will be permanently tormented in Hell

Talk about context. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2010, 04:21 
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Linguistic wrote:
Ibn Al`Arabi, who was one of the scholars who said that 9:5 abrogated 124 verses, also said that the Jizya verse, 9:29, abrogated 9:5! See this post for a discussion of this claim.

Pragmatic wrote:
So if 9:5 was abrogated, does this make it unable to abrogate other verses since it has been invalidated?

...
I suppose they meant it's all invalidated, 9:5 and all that it abrogated. That shrinks the Quran by about 143 verses.

As of this writing, we've studied 332 abrogation claims. That is 5% of the Quran the scholars have declared abrogated!

Pragmatic, you noticed something ten times even more ominous,
Pragmatic wrote:
On page 80 of his book, Al-Zalmi mentions that the total number of verses in the Quran that include a ruling does not exceed 500 verses. This seems lower than I would imagine, but if it is an accurate number it makes the abrogation claims look even more ridiculous since they would be covering more than 50% of all the verses in the Quran that include rulings.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2010, 06:03 
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As I was reciting Chapter 20 tonight, I noticed these verses,

And I got to thinking that the abrogation doctrine puts those who believe in it under the admonition of these verses, God forbid.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2010, 20:46 
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Last night, I noticed another verse that can be taken as a warning about abrogation-like claims


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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 07 Sep 2010, 11:27 
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This may have been brought up before, but tonight I noticed that the verses


carry a pretty stern warning that is readily applicable to "abrogation of the ruling but not the recitation." Just think of someone reciting "لا إكراه في الدين" (no compulsion in religion) while compelling someone in a matter of religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2010, 08:07 
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Another Quranic evidence against the abrogation doctrine that the author of this book suggests on page 71 is the opening sentence in


since commanding us to follow the Quran then annulling parts of it without telling us which parts are annulled amounts to giving us an impossible task. Interesting angle.

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