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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 27 May 2010, 22:24 
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Linguistic wrote:
The type of abrogation called نسخ الحكم دون التلاوة (abrogation of ruling but not of recitation) has been particularly ridiculed by many authors. Dr. Az-Zalmi, in his book التبيان لرفع غموض النسخ في القرآن, page 61, offers an excellent consequence of such theory: He says it leads Muslims to say what they do not do! Something which is sternly forbidden by God, per


Husaam Al-Ghaali, in the introduction to his book بالحجة والبرهان لا نسخ في القرآن writes that many Muslims indeed recite the Quran, maybe even memorize it, without knowing what its words mean and decorate their shelves with it, kiss it and hold it close to their hearts, etc., but don't do what it instructs them to do.

Very nice. I have been trying to find a verse in the Quran (if one exists) that asks people to obey what is recited to them, since such verse would be direct evidence against this mode of abrogation. In the absence of such direct evidence, the arguments of Al-Zalmi and Al-Ghali provide good ammunition.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 28 May 2010, 02:12 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Very nice. I have been trying to find a verse in the Quran (if one exists) that asks people to obey what is recited to them, since such verse would be direct evidence against this mode of abrogation.

How about,

or

Similarly 31:21. Or how about,

or

or

Similarly 28:47. Or how about,


Then there are also several verses instructing the prophet to follow what's been revealed to him, such as

Similarly 7:203, 6:50 and 46:9. Or how about,

Similarly 10:109, 33:2 and

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 28 May 2010, 02:40 
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Some pointed examples you thought of, but the first one is the killer! It is on target especially given the context:


There is no ambiguity that we are the addressees and that the subject matter is the Quran, that we should follow it, and that we should not follow others that we delegate to (which fits like a glove those scholars who overrule the Quran).

Thank you, Linguistic. Let's keep looking for similar verses. This will be a new part of the "case for the defense."

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 28 May 2010, 03:19 
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Pragmatic wrote:
There is no ambiguity that we are the addressees and that the subject matter is the Quran, that we should follow it, and that we should not follow others that we delegate to (which fits like a glove those scholars who overrule the Quran).

Notice also that 7:2 tells the Prophet (PBUH), and through him all of us, that we should not feel any awkwardness about the Book. A reader who thinks two verses contradict each other is feeling awkward about the Book. What's a Muslim to do when that happens? Some hasten to claim abrogation, so God tells those in 7:3 not to do that and not to follow those who do it!

Quote:
Thank you, Linguistic. Let's keep looking for similar verses. This will be a new part of the "case for the defense."

Thanks. I think that

is very compelling in that regard too. There is no debate that the "best of speech" is the Quran, followed by the Hadeeth, followed by the words of the Sahaaba and followed by the words of the scholars, in that order.

If somebody has any doubt about that, let them consider,

If someone doesn't get the rhetorical question :), then how about,

So, when a Muslim hears the Quran say something then hears a scholar say differently, a Muslim must follow the Quran, not the scholar. Because,

which clearly states that, besides being the truth, the Quran offers the better explanation.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 28 May 2010, 19:25 
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Linguistic wrote:
Notice also that 7:2 tells the Prophet (PBUH), and through him all of us, that we should not feel any awkwardness about the Book. A reader who thinks two verses contradict each other is feeling awkward about the Book. What's a Muslim to do when that happens? Some hasten to claim abrogation, so God tells those in 7:3 not to do that and not to follow those who do it!

Nice angle!

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 28 May 2010, 21:57 
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One of the dangers of the claim of abrogation is that it has invited huge differences between scholars, all without a real basis. About that God says,

The reality is that scholars did not have a solid ground to argue what abrogated what, if any, because neither God nor His Messenger have stated such. It is therefore, IMHO, incumbent on scholars to leave out this subject. It is better in this sort of thing to err on the side of accepting the Quran as is than to make an erroneous conclusion that deactivates any of its rulings.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 29 May 2010, 00:21 
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Linguistic wrote:
God warns against arguing about verses without authority,


The reality is that scholars did not have a solid ground to argue what abrogated what, if any, because neither God nor His Messenger have stated such. It is therefore, IMHO, incumbent on scholars to leave out this subject. It is better in this sort of thing to err on the side of accepting the Quran as is than to make an erroneous conclusion that deactivates any of its rulings.

I looked at the context to see if "verses" or "signs" would be the proper translation for آيات in these cases. I think "signs" is the more fitting translation.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 29 May 2010, 08:06 
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Pragmatic wrote:
I looked at the context to see if "verses" or "signs" would be the proper translation for آيات in these cases. I think "signs" is the more fitting translation.

I can see your point. Mine is this: I'm convinced that when God uses a word that has a general meaning and does not specify it later, then He intended it for all of its meanings. This is how I read 3:7 for instance. The reason that God tells us that there are verses in the Quran that "look alike" or that "carry multiple meanings" is not so that we can try and find out which of its meanings is intended, but to realize that all of its meanings are intended!

Following that rationale, all uses in the Quran of the word آية that is not specified to mean verse, means a sign or a verse, because a verse of God's scriptures is a sign of Him.

The scholars coined a phrase for words that carry multiple meanings: المشترك اللفظي. Al-Jabri, in his book الناسخ والمنسوخ بين الإثبات والنفي, page 91, mentions that Ash-Shaafi`i and Ibn Hazm have opined that a ruling given by such a word applies to all its meanings. Abu-Haneefa's fellows disagreed. If we agree that the word آية fits this category, then this backs up my humble opinion above.

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 29 May 2010, 08:32 
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Just to keep the discussion lively :), there seems to be two central points where we have different views, and I thought I might reiterate my view. No need for one of us to convince the other as we can agree to disagree. I just wanted to explain where I am coming from. My premise is that I have to be able to defend any point we make with unlabored argument.

1. What نسخ means in 2:106 - Regardless of what definitions were used by anyone subsequent to the revelation of 2:106, the linguistic meaning at the time of the revelation prevails. The evidence that it means annul is supported by the dictionaries and by the other use of the word in the Quran (annul what Satan throws).

2. What آية means in 2:106 and elsewhere - I believe that the context determines that. I agree that in the absence of evidence from the context we cannot pin that down, but I believe that the context can break the tie. No difference with any other multi-meaning word, e.g., يضرب.

Since nobody is challenging what we are saying on the forum, I am glad we at least get to challenge each other. Otherwise, we would be بنغني ونرد على بعض (singing in a chorus, for the uninitiated). :)

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 Post subject: Re: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 29 May 2010, 16:33 
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Pragmatic wrote:
I looked at the context to see if "verses" or "signs" would be the proper translation for آيات in the case of 40:69. I think "signs" is the more fitting translation.

I draw your attention to the contexts of

And

suggest verse. Notice also that 40:53 speaks of the Book sent to the Children of Israel,

And that 40:70 explicitly mentions the Book,

That's what I mean: Very often the Quran uses the word to mean both semantics and interchanges them. I see no cause to limit its meaning without a very strong evidence, such as when God says to recite them; that has to mean verses.

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