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 Post subject: Did 5:3 or the Sunna abrogate 6:145?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2010, 21:46 
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This case has to do with what meats are not forbidden. Ibn Al-Jawzi reports that

was claimed abrogated by


This what he writes,

ذكر الآية السادسة عشر: قوله تعالى "قل لا أجد فيما أوحي إلي محرما على طاعم يطعمه" الآية. اختلف العلماء في حكم هذه الآية على قولين:

الأول أن المعنى لا أجد محرما مما كنتم تستحلون في الجاهلية إلا هذا، قاله طاؤس ومجاهد.

والثاني أنها حصرت المحرم فليس في الحيوانات محرم إلا ما ذكر فيها، ثم اختلف أرباب هذا القول فذهب بعضهم إلى أنها محكمة وأن العمل على ما ذكر فيها، فكان ابن عباس لا يرى بلحوم الحمر الأهلية بأسا ويقرأ هذه الآية ويقول ليس بشيء حراما إلا ما حرمه الله في كتابه. وهذا مذهب عائشة والشعبي. وذهب آخرون إلى أنها نسخت بما ذكر في المائدة من المنخنقة والموقوذة والمتردية والنطيحة وما أكل السبع، وقد رد قوم هذا القول بأن قالوا كل هذا داخل في الميتة وقد ذكرت الميتة ها هنا فلا وجه للنسخ. وزعم قوم أنها نسخت بآية المائدة وبالسنة من تحريم الحمر الأهلية وكل ذي ناب من السباع ومخلب من الطير. وهذا ليس بصحيح. أما آية المائدة فقد ذكرنا أنها داخلة في هذه الآية، وأما ما ورد في السنة فلا يجوز أن يكون ناسخا لأن مرتبة القرآن لا يقاومها أخبار الآحاد، ولو قيل إن السنة خصت ذلك الإطلاق أو ابتدأت حكما كان أصلح، وإنما الصواب عندنا أن يقال هذه الآية نزلت بمكة، ولم تكن الفرائض قد تكاملت ولا المحرمات، اليوم قد تتامت، ولهذا قال في ما أوحي على لفظ الماضي، وقد كان حينئذ من قال لا إله إلا الله ثم مات دخل الجنة، فلما جاءت الفرائض والحدود وقعت المطالبة بها، فكذلك هذه الآية إنما أخبرت بما كان في الشرع من التحريم يومئذ، فلا ناسخ إذن ولا منسوخ. ثم كيف يدعى نسخها وهي خبر والخبر لا يدخله النسخ؟


Two arguments are made:
  1. Does "I do not find..." mean that no other meat is forbidden? Ibn Abbaas, Aa'isha and Ash-Sha`bi took it that way. Mujaahid and Taawoos, on the other hand, understood it to mean "of the meats of pre-Islamic era."
  2. If there are no other forbidden meats, then how does one reconcile 6:145 with 5:3, which names more meats as forbidden? Not to mention that the Sunna forbids zebra meat. Ibn Al-Jawzi argues that all the meats mentioned in 5:3 as forbidden are dead meats, which 6:145 also forbids, therefore there is no abrogation. As for the Sunna, Ibn Al-Jawzi reiterates his objection to the notion that a Sunna reported by a few can abrogate a verse of the Quran. He also says that 6:145 is a statement and statements cannot be abrogated.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 5:3 or the Sunna abrogate 6:145?
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2010, 04:47 
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A meritorious case. The verses addressing the allowed foods IMHO belong to the متشابهات verses, and need to be taken collectively to ascertain what is allowed and what is not allowed. However, I don't see annulment of any of them by another.

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 Post subject: Who said what
PostPosted: 21 Jun 2010, 17:40 
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For:
Abu-Bakr Al-Hamdaani (implied, in his book الاعتبار في الناسخ والمنسوخ من الآثار, page 24),
Abush-Shaykh Al-Haafizh (quoted by Al-Hamdaani).

Against:
Taawoos, Mujaahid (implied),
Ibn Abbaas,
`Aa'isha,
Ash-Sha`bi,
Sa`eed Ibn Jabeer, Shihaab (according to Al-Khazraji),
Al-Hasan (according to Shu`la),
Maalik (leaning),
Ash-Shaafi`i (implied),
Ibn Hajar (implied),
Ibn Al-Jawzi,
An-Nahhaas,
Makki,
Abu-Abdillah Shu`la,
Ar-Raazi,
An-Naysaapoori,
M. Rasheed Ridha (implied),
Dr. Mustafa Zayd,
Husaam Al-Ghaali.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 5:3 or the Sunna abrogate 6:145?
PostPosted: 21 Jun 2010, 18:18 
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Pragmatic wrote:
A meritorious case. The verses addressing the allowed foods IMHO belong to the متشابهات verses, and need to be taken collectively to ascertain what is allowed and what is not allowed. However, I don't see annulment of any of them by another.

Al-Ghaali, in his book بالحجة والبرهان لا نسخ في القرآن, pages 136-145, spends 9 pages refuting this case. The main claim to abrogation has been based on authentic hadeeths prohibiting the eating of lions and all canine animals, zebras and all birds with claws.

Al-Ghaali propounds the opinions of scholars, such as Ash-Shaafi`i, Al-Layth and Ibn `Atiyya, trying to reconcile the hadeeths with 6:145 and says that all of them are weak and even weaker is the abrogation claim. He concludes with what Maalik, Ibn Hajar and Rasheed Ridha converged to, namely, that the hadeeths discourage, rather than prohibit, those meats or it was a contingent prohibition during a particular battle, Khaybar.

Al-Ghaali then asks: What about alcohol? He answers himself that alcohol is not food and neither are any intoxicant or narcotic which are not much different from poison, he said. Food is what relieves hunger and that is the subject of 6:145.

Al-Ghaali includes two poignant quotes. The first is by Ar-Raazi (my translation), "God would not have expressed 6:145 as a confinement construct (أسلوب قصر), and emphasized the itemized list of prohibited meats in it later (such as in 16:115, 2:173 and the claimed abrogating verse itself, 5:3), if He intended to abrogate all that later with a hadeeth!"

The other quote came from Ibn `Umar,
عن ابن عمر أنه سئل عن لحوم السباع فقال: لا بأس بها فقيل له: حديث أبي ثعلبة الخشني؟ فقال: لا ندع كتاب الله ربنا لحديث أعرابي ـ

Translation: Ibn Umar was asked about lion meat, he said, "They are allowed". It was said to him, "What about the hadeeth narrated by Abu-Tha`laba Al-Khashani?" He replied, "We do not leave the Book of God our Lord for a hadeeth narrated by a bedouin."

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 Post subject: Re: Did 5:3 or the Sunna abrogate 6:145?
PostPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 20:24 
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Abu-Abdillah Shu`la reluctantly rejects this claim in his book صفوة الراسخ في علم المنسوخ والناسخ, pages 139-140. His conclusion from all the opinions he presented was that 5:3 added prohibitions to the meats mentioned in 6:145. It did not allow any meats that 6:145 prohibited. That, he says, is not abrogation. Based on that logic, he also adds the meats of zebra, canine lions and raptor birds to the list, which the Prophet (PBUH) has prohibited.

The prohibition of the meats of zebra, canine lions and raptor birds was the reason some scholars thought that the Sunna abrogated 6:145.

Sa`eed ibn Jabeer and Ash-Sha`bi both rejected the claim, according to Shu`la, and ruled allowance for zebra meat, which suggests that they believed that 6:145 abrogated the Sunna.

Shu`la also mentions an opinion of scholars he did not name that any meat not cured, per 5:3, is in the same category as dead meat and that makes it prohibited. These scholars concluded that zebra meat was such. But what if one cures zebra meat? Shu`la did not say what these scholars have said about that possibility.

I find Shu`la's explanation, that addition is not abrogation, is the most relevant argument here. When one verse prohibits X and Y and another verse prohibits Y and Z and the Sunna prohibits W, the conclusion from all of that is that X, Y, Z and W are all prohibited, not that the prohibition of X and Y has been abrogated. This is our validation rule #11.

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