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 Post subject: Did 4:18 abrogate 4:17?
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2010, 19:13 
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This case is about repentence and whether God accepts it, from whom and when. Here are the two verse cited,

is claimed to have been abrogated by


This is what Ibn Al-Jawzi writes about this case,

ذكر الآية الثامنة والتاسعة: قوله تعالى "إنما التوبة على الله للذين يعملون السوء بجهالة"، وقوله "وليست التوبة للذين يعملون السيئات حتى إذا حضر أحدهم الموت قال إني تبت الآن" الآيتان إنما سمى فاعل الذنب جاهلا لأن فعله مع العلم بسوء مغبته فأشبه من جهل المغبة والتوبة من قريب ما كان قبل معاينة الملك، فإذا حضرالملك لسوق الروح لم تقبل ثوبه، لأن الإنسان حينئذ يصير كالمضطر إلى التوبة فمن تاب قبل ذلك قبلت توبته، أو أسلم عن كفر قبل إسلامه. وهذا أمر ثابت محكم. وقد زعم بعض من لا فهم له أن هذا الأمر أقر على هذا في حق أرباب المعاصي من المسلمين ونسخ حكمه في حق الكفار بقوله "ولا الذين يموتون وهم كفار". هذا ليس بشيء فإن حكم الفريقين واحد


Ibn Al-Jawzi dismisses the claim but I don't think he actually said why.

This is another simple case of two verses making up the point, not abrogating one another. The point is:
"God accepts the repentance of those who sin out of ignorance, but not from those who die as disbelievers or repent at the moment of death. It's too late for those."

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 Post subject: Re: Did 4:18 abrogate 4:17?
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2010, 21:47 
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Linguistic wrote:
This is another simple case of two verses making up the point, not abrogating one another. The point is:
"God accepts the repentance of those who sin out of ignorance, but not from those who die as disbelievers or repent at the moment of death. It's too late for those."

Agreed. What can possibly be construed as contradiction?

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 Post subject: Re: Did 4:18 abrogate 4:17?
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2010, 08:33 
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Dr. Mostafa Zaid refutes this claim under the "statement of fact" section on pages 419-423 in volume 1 of his book. First he states that there is almost unanimity that something in 4:17-18 is abrogated, but there are differences about what it is. :) He discusses a confusing situation about the basis for the abrogation, and some statements by scholars that are difficult to understand.

He uses the statement-of-fact argument to refute the claim, and he further asserts that there is no contradiction anyway. As I read his analysis, it struck me that 4:17 states conditions under which God guarantees forgiveness, and 4:18 states conditions under which God excludes forgiveness. Not only do these two extremes have no conflict, but they also leave the middle ground as a "do at your own risk" territory.

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 Post subject: Who said what
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010, 04:21 
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For:
Ibn Abbaas (quoted from a narration reported by At-Tabari, per Dr. Zayd),
Ibn Hilaal (according to Dr. Zayd),
Ibn Hazm Al-Andalusi,
Ibn Salaama.

Against:
Ibn Al-Jawzi,
Al-Karmi (according to Dr. Zayd),
Al-Jabri,
Dr. Mustafa Zayd,
Dr. Ahmad Hijaazi As-Saqqa.

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 Post subject: Re: Who said what
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010, 04:28 
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Linguistic wrote:
For:
Ibn Hazm Al-Andalusi.

Does he elaborate?

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 Post subject: Re: Who said what
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010, 05:23 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Linguistic wrote:
For:
Ibn Hazm Al-Andalusi.

Does he elaborate?

He says,
الآية السادسة قوله تعالى "إنما التوبة على الله للذين يعملون السوء بجهالة ثم يتوبون من قريب" الآية 17 مدنية النساء 4. وذلك أن الله تعالى ضمن لأهل التوحيد أن يقبل أن يغرغروا وقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم كل من كان قبل الموت ثم استثنى في الآية الأخرى بقوله تعالى "إلا ما قد سلف" فصارت ناسخة لبعض حكمها لأهل الشرك، ثم قال "وليست التوبة للذين يعملون السيئات" إلى آخرها 18 النساء 4

Brief translation:
God guaranteed for the people of monotheism to accept [their repentance] before they gargle, last moment before death, explained the Prophet (PBUH). Then He excluded in the other verse,

by saying "Except what was before (pre-Islam)" so it became abrogating to a part of its ruling.

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 Post subject: Re: Who said what
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2010, 16:01 
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Linguistic wrote:
He (Ibn Hazm Al-Andalusi) says,
...
Brief translation:
God guaranteed for the people of monotheism to accept [their repentance] before they gargle, last moment before death, explained the Prophet (PBUH). Then He excluded in the other verse, 8:38, by saying "Except what was before (pre-Islam)" so it became abrogating to a part of its ruling.

Dr. Mustafa Zayd, in his book النسخ في القرآن الكريم, volume 1, pages 421-422 (items 592-593), noticed that no scholar who agreed about this claim has quoted a narration to support the claim! Indeed, most claims of abrogation have been initiated by a narration tracing back to a Sahaabi, usually Ibn Abbaas. Dr. Zayd wonders why no scholar have noticed a narration by Ibn Abbaas, reported by At-Tabari, which implies that 4:18 is the one that was abrogated! By 4:17. That is, for disbelievers, repentance at the moment of death is unacceptable, but for the believers, it may be.

Dr. Zayd also makes an excellent observation in the footnotes. He noticed the phrase على الله (Upon God) in 4:17, but no similar phrase in 4:18. Thus, he concludes that 4:17 cannot possibly be abrogated, since it something that God mandated on Himself!

Dr. Zayd also says that 4:17 specifies the conditions for acceptance of repentance, while 4:18 specifies the conditions for rejection of repentance. I'd add that the two sets do not intersect. If they did, there would be a legitimate cause to consider abrogation.

Dr. Zayd makes another excellent refutation argument. He says that 4:18 started with those, believers or otherwise, who continue to sin until they see the angel of death and decide to repent then. Their repentance is unaccepted. The subsequent group, disbelievers who die as such, are, by analogy, in the category of "all the more reason" (من باب أولى).

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 Post subject: Consequences of abrogation
PostPosted: 23 Oct 2010, 18:54 
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Abdul-Muta`aal Al-Jabri refutes this claim on pages 139-140 of his book لا نسخ في القرآن...لماذا؟, and calls it amazing! He says that the majority of exegetes have rejected that claim. The technical term used is قبول توبة غير المسوف (acceptance of the repentance of the non-procrastinator) and عدم رجاء قبول توبة المسوف (unlikelihood of accepting the repentance of the procrastinator).

Al-Jabri then makes the excellent point that accepting this claim will lead to much harm in the society. That's because it will lead a sinner to despair of God's grace, thus he does more evil. If a sinner thinks he's doomed, then why would he mend his ways? He has nothing more to lose.

Nay! The door of repentance is wide open to those who want to stop doing wrong, regret what they did and ask God for forgiveness. In fact, the realization that all sin is forgivable compels repenting sinners to do much good in the hope it will expiate the wrong they have done in the past. Society is the beneficiary of such tendency.

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