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 Post subject: Did 9:60 abrogate 6:141?
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2010, 04:44 
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This case states that the Zakah verse, 9:60, abrogated the unspecified crop due mentioned in 6:141.

Here are the two verses,

is claimed to have been abrogated by


Again, specifying what the due is, is not abrogation, but a completion of the command. Perhaps the pro-abrogation scholars thought that the deserving of the crop due was left to the discretion of the farmer and is now fixed by the Zakah verse?

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:60 abrogate 6:141?
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2010, 06:53 
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Linguistic wrote:
Perhaps the pro-abrogation scholars thought that the deserving of the crop due was left to the discretion of the farmer and is now fixed by the Zakah verse?

What is due is by definition not discretionary. Discretion is up to the person, but what is due is up to the rules.

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 Post subject: Did 9:60 abrogate 6:141?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2010, 21:13 
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Here is what Ibn Al-Jawzi wrote about this claim,

ذكر الآية الخامسة عشرة: قوله تعالى "وآتوا حقه يوم حصاده". اختلف العلماء في المراد بهذا الحق على قولين:

الأول أنه الزكاة. أخبرنا محمد بن عبد الباقي البزاز قال بنا أبو محمد الجواهري قال أبنا محمد المظفر قال أبنا علي بن إسماعيل بن حماد قال بنا أبو حفص عمرو بن علي قال بنا عبد الصمد بن عبد الوارث قال بنا يزيد بن درهم قال سمعت أنس بن مالك يقول "وآتوا حقه يوم حصاده" قال الزكاة المفروضة. قال أبو حفص وبنا معلى بن أسد قال بنا عبد الواحد بن زياد قال بنا الحجاج ابن أرطاة عن الحكم عن مجاهد عن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما "وآتوا حقه يوم حصاده" قال العشر ونصف العشر. قال أبو حفص وبنا عبد الرحمن قال بنا إبراهيم بن نافع عن ابن طاؤس عن أبيه "وآتوا حقه يوم حصاده" قال الزكاة قال أبو حفص وبنا عبد الرحمن قال بنا أبو هلال عن خباب الأعرج عن جابر بن زيد "وآتوا حقه يوم حصاده" قال الزكاة. قال أبو حفص وبنا محمد بن جعفر قال بنا شعبة عن أبي رجاء قال سألت الحسن عن قوله "وآتوا حقه يوم حصاده" قال الزكاة، وهذا قول سعيد بن المسيب وسعيد بن جبير وابن حنفية وعطاء وقتادة وزيد بن أسلم في آخرين، فعلى هذا الآية محكمة. وينبغى على قول هؤلاء أن تكون هذه الآية مدنية لأن السورة مكية والزكاة إنما أنزلت بالمدينة.

والثاني أنه حق غير الزكاة أمر به يوم الحصاد، وهو إطعام من حضر وترك ما سقط من الزرع والتمر. أخبرنا محمد بن أبي طاهر قال أبنا الجوهري قال أبنا الظفر قال أبنا علي بن إسماعيل قال أنبا أبو حفص قال أبنا يحيى بن سعيد قال بنا عبد الملك عن عطاء "وآتوا حقه يوم حصاده" قال القبضة من الطعام. وقال يحيى بن سعيد عن سفيان عن منصور عن مجاهد " وآتوا حقه" قال شيء سوى الزكاة في الحصاد والجذاذ إذا حصدوا وإذا جذوا. وقال أبو حفص وبنا عبد الرحمن عن سفيان عن منصور عن مجاهد قال إذا حصدوا ألقى إليهم من السنبل وإذا جذوا النخل ألقى لهم من الشماريخ فإذا كاله زكاه. قال أبو حفص وبن معمر بن سليمان قال بنا عاصم عن أبي العالية "وآتوا حقه" قال كانوا يعطون شيئا سوى الزكاة. أخبرنا إسماعيل بن أحمد قال أبنا عمر بن عبيد الله قال أبنا ابن بشران قال أبنا إسحاق بن أحمد قال بنا عبد الله بن أحمد قال حدثنا أبي قال بنا هشيم قال أبنا مغيرة عن شباك عن إبراهيم قال كانوا يعطون حتى نسختها الصدقة العشر أو نصف العشر. أخبرنا المبارك بن علي قال أبنا أحمد بن الحسين بن قريش قال أبنا إبراهيم بن عمر قال أبنا محمد بن إسماعيل بن العباس قال أبنا أبو بكر بن أبي داود قال أبنا عبد الله بن سعيد قال أبنا ابن ادريس عن أبيه عن عطية "وآتوا حقه يوم حصاده" قال كانوا إذا حصدوا وإذا يبس وإذا عربل أعطوا منه شيئا فنسخ ذلك العشر ونصف العشر. قال أبو بكر وبنا محمد بن بشار قال بنا يزيد قال أبنا عبد الملك عن عطاء "وآتوا حقه يوم حصاده" قال ليس بالزكاة ولكنه إذا كيل قبض منه قبضات من شهد رضخ له منه. اختلف العلماء هل نسخ أم لا إن قلنا أنه أمر وجوب فهو منسوخ بالزكاة وإن قلنا إنه أمر استحباب فهو باقي الحكم


As I mentioned elsewhere, the Zakah verse did not abrogate anything, because all it did was specify to whom Zakah is to be given. It does not specify how much or when.

That said, this claim is interesting. Ibn Al-Jawzi reports that there was a difference of interpretation of "its due". Many said it means the Zakah and many said it was a small charity right after the harvest where what is left around is given to the poor, but when the harvest is measured, then the Zakah is due.

Ibn Al-Jawzi does not have a decisive opinion on it. His point is whether the imperative in 6:141 is a mandate; if it is, he sees abrogation, but if it's only a recommendation, he sees no abrogation.

One reason this case is interesting is that Chapter 6 was revealed in Mecca, which means that if the interpretation of "its due" is the Zakah then 6:141 must have been revealed in Medina because that's where the Zakah verse was revealed. That assumption cannot be rightly made, since reports show that the entire chapter 6 may have been revealed at once.

So, does that mean 6:141 was indeed abrogated? I don't agree, but for a different reason altogether! 6:141 states that the crop's due charity needs to be given out the day of the harvest. That is the concern of the verse. The other types of Zakah may be delayed for an entire year. Thus the two verses do not conflict. In other words, the two verses mean together the following,

"Zakah is a duty on the harvest and on other property. Until further notice, its amount is voluntary. For the harvest in particular, it must be given out the day of the harvest. For other types, it may given out at various times."

The further notice I refer to in the above statement is the Zakah verse, 9:60, elaborated by the Sunna.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:60 abrogate 6:141?
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2010, 04:41 
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A case in point in what Burton asserts in his book, that the abrogation doctrine is about resolving conflicts in exegeses of the Quran, not conflicts in the Quran itself.

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 Post subject: Who said what
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2010, 17:35 
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For:
Ibn Abbaas, Al-Hasan (in one report, per Ash-Shawkaani),
Ibn Al-Hanafiyya (Muhammad ibn Ali ibn Abi-Taalib) (according to Ash-Shawkaani),
Sa`eed ibn Jabeer,
Ikrima,
Ad-Dhahhaak (according to Al-Khazraji),
Ibn Jareer At-Tabari (who said 6:141 specifies the time of the Zakah on crops, according by Dr. Zayd),
Ash-Shawkaani,
`Atiyya,
As-Suddi,
Ibrahim An-Nakh`i (according to Dr. Zayd),
Muhammad ibn Ja`far, `Ataa' ibn Abi-Rabaah, Hammaad, Mujaahid, Abdullah ibn Umar, Yazeed ibn Al-Asamm, Maymoon, Ar-Rabee` ibn Anas and Muhamamd ibn Ka`b (according to At-Tabari, says Dr. Zayd),
An-Nahhaas.

Against:
Ibn Abbaas (who said the right in 6:141 is the Zakah, according to Dr. Zayd and Shu`la),
Ibn `Umar,
Al-Hasan, Mujaahid and Ibn Abbaas (in other reports, per Al-Qaasim ibn Salaam and Ibn Al-Jawzi),
Anas ibn Maalik,
Sa`eed in Jabeer (according to Ibn Al-Jawzi),
Taawoos,
Ibrahim An-Nakh`i,
Ash-Sha`bi (implied),
Jaabir ibn Zayd,
Sa`eed ibn Al-Musayyib,
`Ataa' (according to Ibn Al-Jawzi and Makki),
Qataada,
Zayd ibn Aslam,
Abu-`Ubayd Al-Qaasim ibn Salaam,
Abul-`Aaliya,
Abu-Haneefa,
Maalik (according to Ibn Al`Arabi in his book أحكام القرآن, page 752, quoted by Dr. Zayd, also said by Makki, according to Dr. Faaris),
Ash-Shaafi`i (implied, according to Al-Jabri. Dr. Faaris quoted Makki saying it was one of two opinions),
Ja`far Aş-Şaadiq and Sufyaan (according to Shu`la),
Ali ibn Al-Hasan, Ar-Rabee`, Muhammad ibn Al-Hanafiyya and Hammaad (according to Al-Jabri),
Makki,
Ibn Al-Jawzi,
Az-Zamakhshari,
Abu-Abdillah Shu`la,
An-Nasfi,
As-Zurqaani,
Judge Ibn Al`Arabi,
Al-Asfahaani,
Ar-Raazi,
Al-Jassaas,
Ibn Katheer (implied),
As-Suyooti,
M. Rasheed Ridha (implied),
Al-Jabri,
Dr. Mustafa Zayd,
Husaam Al-Ghaali,
Ihab Hasan Abduh,
Dr. M. Ibrahim Faaris (implied).

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:60 abrogate 6:141?
PostPosted: 06 Dec 2010, 16:56 
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Dr. Mustafa Zayd rejects this claim in his book النسخ في القرآن الكريم, volume 2, pages 214-222 (items 1038-1054) on the basis of no contradiction. He agrees with Ibn Abbaas, Anas ibn Maalik, Jaabir ibn Zayd, Zayd ibn Aslam, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Sa`eed ibn Al-Musayyib, Ibn Al-Jawzi and Ibn Al-`Arabi that the right mentioned in 6:141 is the mandatory alms (Zakah). He says that this is how Abu-Bakr convinced Umar, may God have been pleased with them, that it was lawful to fight those who refused to pay the Zakah. Umar had pointed out to Abu-Bakr that fighting fellow Muslims was not permitted except for rights of blood or money. Abu-Bakr replied that the Zakah is the right of money.

Dr. Zayd quotes At-Tabari saying that what 6:141 talks about is the time of giving the Zakah on crops. That is why At-Tabari believed 6:141 was abrogated, since Zakah may be delayed for up to a year after the crop, per the Sunna and consensus. Ibn Al-`Arabi counters that argument by quoting the varied opinions of other scholars about the time the Zakah on crops must be given:

  1. Muhammad ibn Musallama opined that the time is the day of the crop.
  2. Others say the time is the day the crop becomes ripe. Ibn Al`Arabi agrees with that opinion.
  3. Al-Mugheera opined that the time is after the sifting and milling. At-Tabari stated that this is the majority opinion. Dr. Zayd questions that, though he agrees with the opinion.

The reason this is an issue is what happens if fruits or crop rots before Zakah is given out on them. While that is important, it is irrelevant to the abrogation discussion.

Dr. Zayd ends up agreeing with Al-Jassaas that the time mentioned in 6:141 is the time the Zakah becomes due but not necessarily the time it must be paid out. I can see that. For instance, a year has passed and Zakah is now due, but the crop has not yet been harvested. In such case, the farmer has no obligation to give out Zakah on it; it's not due yet.

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 Post subject: Consequences
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2011, 04:45 
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Abdul-Muta`aal Al-Jabri, in his book لا نسخ في القرآن...لماذا؟, pages 48-49, rejects this claim and says that accepting this claim means depriving the poor from the joy of getting free food on the day of harvest! Something which God says in 6:141 is due.

I agree with him and add something that member Physician once told me. He said that Egyptian farmers have the custom of never picking up corn and wheat that falls on the ground during the harvest, as they consider it provision from God for the birds! All the more reason to leave it to the hungry.

Al-Jabri propounds the scholars interpretations of what the word حقه (its due) means:
  1. Ali ibn Al-Hasan, `Ataa', Mujaahid and Hammaad said it means feeding whoever is present, and leaving out for the poor what drops of crop and fruits.
  2. Ibn Mardaweh and An-Nahhaas opined that it means what falls from wheat spikes.
  3. Ar-Rabee` and Mujaahid said it is a sampling of wheat spikes.

Al-Jabri also mentions the opinion of Ash-Shaffi`i that harvest day is the day the Zakah on crops is due, and a judge may order forced collection if the farmer puts it off.

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 Post subject: Re: Did 9:60 abrogate 6:141?
PostPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 19:58 
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Abu-Abdillah Shu`la, in his book صفوة الراسخ في علم المنسوخ والناسخ, pages 138-139, rejects this claim, which he says is based on the assumption that the right mentioned in 6:141 was the generous custom of the Arabs to let people gather and take what falls on the ground during harvest. Shu`la argues that such custom remains a recommended practice (Sunna).

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