TheMostReadBook.org

An English translation of the Quran that is as close as possible to the Arabic sacred text
View active topics
  Verse(s):    
View unanswered posts





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Definition of محكم /muħkæm/ and متشابه /mutæ,ʃæ:bih/
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2010, 02:14 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1784
Location: USA
I would like to express a strong objection to some of the terminology used in the abrogation literature. They refer to something that is not abrogated as " محكم " which intentionally or inadvertently refers to



and I take exception with this implicit connotation.

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did 65:4 and 33:49 abrogate 2:228?
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2010, 04:00 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2009, 16:10
Posts: 4434
Location: USA
Pragmatic wrote:
I would like to express a strong objection to some of the terminology used in the abrogation literature. They refer to something that is not abrogated as " محكم " which intentionally or inadvertently refers to 3:7 and I take exception with this implicit connotation.

That bothers me too because it's unnecessary, religiously or linguistically. A better word that has been used by scholars is باقية (staying).

_________________
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Definition of محكم /muħkæm/ and متشابه /mutæ,ʃæ:bih/
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2010, 01:26 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2009, 16:10
Posts: 4434
Location: USA
Pragmatic wrote:
I would like to express a strong objection to some of the terminology used in the abrogation literature. They refer to something that is not abrogated as " محكم " which intentionally or inadvertently refers to 3:7, and I take exception with this implicit connotation.

I found out what's been said about the meaning of محكم. As-Suyooti reports the different interpretations. An excerpt follows.
النوع الثالث والأربعون:
في المحكم والمتشابه
قال تعالى "هو الذي أنزل عليك الكتاب منه آيات محكمات هن أم الكتاب وأخر متشابهات"، وقد حكى ابن حبيب النيسابوري في المسألة ثلاثة أقوال:
أحدها أن القرآن كله محكم لقوله تعالى "كتاب أحكمت أياته".
الثاني كله متشابه لقوله تعالى "كتابا متشابها مثاني"،
الثالث وهو الصحيح انقسامه إلى محكم ومتشابه للآية المصدر بها.
والجواب عن الآيتين أن المراد بإحكامه إتقانه وعدم تطرق النقص والاختلاف إليه وبتشابهه كونه يشبه بعضه بعضا في الحق والصدق والإعجاز.

وقال بعضهم الآية لا تدل على الحصر في الشيئين إذ ليس فيها شيء من طرقه، وقد قال تعالى "لتبين للناس ما نزل إليهم"، والمحكم لا تتوقف معرفته على البيان، والمتشابه لا يرجى بيانه.

وقد اختلف في تعيين المحكم والمتشابه على أقوال:
فقيل المحكم ما عرف المراد منه إما بالظهور وإما بالتأويل، والمتشابه ما استأثر الله بعلمه كقيام الساعة وخروج الدجال والحروف المقطعة في أوائل السور.
وقيل المحكم ما وضح معناه والمتشابه نقيضه،
وقيل المحكم ما لا يحتمل من التأويل إلا وجها واحدا والمتشابه ما احتمل أوجها.
وقيل المحكم ما استقل بنفسه، والمتشابه ما لا يستقل بنفسه إلا برده إلى غيره.
وقيل المحكم ما تأويله تنزيله، والمتشابه ما لا يدرى إلا بالتأويل.

أخرج ابن أبي حاتم من طريق علي بن أبي طلحة عن ابن عباس قال: المحكمات ناسخه وحلاله وحرامه وحدوده وفرائضه وما يؤمن به ويعمل به، والمتشابهات منسوخه ومقدمه ومؤخره وأمثاله وأقسامه وما يؤمن به ولا يعمل به.
وأخرج عبد بن حميد عن الضحاك قال: المحكمات ما لم ينسخ منه، والمتشابهات ما قد نسخ.

قال ابن أبي حاتم وقد روي عن عكرمة وقتادة وغيرهما أن المحكم الذي يعمل به، والمتشابه الذي يؤمن به ولا يعمل به.

اختلف هل المتشابه مما يمكن الاطلاع على علمه أو لا يعلمه إلا الله على قولين منشؤهما الاختلاف في قوله "والراسخون في العلم" هل هو معطوف و يقولون حال أو مبتدأ خبره يقولون والواو للاستئناف. وعلى الأول طائفة يسيرة منهم مجاهد، وهو رواية عن ابن عباس. فأخرج ابن المنذر من طريق مجاهد عن ابن عباس في قوله "وما يعلم تأويله إلا الله والراسخون في العلم" قال أنا ممن يعلم تأويله.
وأخرج عبد بن حميد عن مجاهد في قوله "والراسخون في العلم" قال يعلمون تأويله ويقولون آمنا به.
وأخرج ابن أبي حاتم عن الضحاك قال: الراسخون في العلم يعلمون تأويله ولو لم يعلموا تأويله لم يعلموا ناسخه من منسوخه ولا حلاله من حرامه ولا محكمه من متشابهه.
واختار هذا القول النووي فقال في شرح مسلم إنه الأصح لأنه يبعد أن يخاطب الله عباده بما لا سبيل لأحد من الخلق إلى معرفته.
وقال ابن الحاجب إنه الظاهر، وأما الأكثرون من الصحابة والتابعين وأتباعهم ومن بعدهم خصوصا أهل السنة فذهبوا إلى الثاني وهو أصح الروايات عن ابن عباس.
قال ابن السمعاني لم يذهب إلى القول الأول إلا شرذمة قليلة، واختاره العتبي قال وقد كان يعتقد مذهب أهل السنة لكنه سها في هذه المسألة.
قلت ويدل لصحة مذهب الأكثرين ما أخرجه عبد الرزاق في تفسيره والحاكم في مستدركه عن ابن عباس أنه كان يقرأ "وما يعلم تأويله إلا الله" ويقول الراسخون في العلم آمنا به، فهذا يدل على أن الواو للاستئناف لأن هذه الرواية وإن لم تثبت بها القراءة فأقل درجاتها أن يكون خبرا بإسناد صحيح إلى ترجمان القرآن فيقدم كلامه في ذلك على من دونه.

وأخرج الشيخان وغيرهما عن عائشة قالت تلا رسول الله هذه الآية "هو الذي أنزل عليك الكتاب" إلى قوله "أولوا الألباب" قالت قال رسول الله: فإذا رأيت الذين يتبعون ما تشابه منه فأولئك الذين سمى الله فاحذرهم.
وأخرج الطبراني في الكبير عن أبي مالك الأشعري أنه سمع رسول الله يقول: لا أخاف على أمتي إلا ثلاث خلال أن يكثر لهم المال فيتحاسدوا فيقتتلوا، وأن يفتح لهم الكتاب فيأخذه المؤمن يبتغي تأويله وما يعلم تأويله إلا الله . . ." الحديث.
وأخرج ابن مردوية من حديث عمرو بن شعيب عن أبيه عن جده عن رسول الله قال: إن القرآن لم ينزل ليكذب بعضه بعضا، فما عرفتم منه فاعملوا به وما تشابه فآمنوا به".

وأخرج أيضا عن أبي الشعثاء وأبي نهيك قال إنكم تصلون هذه الآية وهي مقطوعة

_________________
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Definition of محكم /muħkæm/ and متشابه /mutæ,ʃæ:bih/
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2010, 02:10 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1784
Location: USA
Linguistic wrote:
فأخرج ابن المنذر من طريق مجاهد عن ابن عباس في قوله "وما يعلم تأويله إلا الله والراسخون في العلم" قال أنا ممن يعلم تأويله

I have difficulty believing that Ibn Abbas, may God be pleased with him, would say that.

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did 65:4 and 33:49 abrogate 2:228?
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2010, 08:05 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1784
Location: USA
Linguistic wrote:
I found out what's been said about the meaning of محكم. As-Suyooti reports the different interpretations.

I have a simpler view of 3:7. The Quran plays a dual role in the life of Muslims. On the one hand, everyone regardless of their knowledge or intelligence is encouraged to read it as a form of worship and inspiration. On the other hand, scholars depend on it as a source of legislation. In order to fulfill both roles, the style of the the Quran is not 'legalistic'. I view 3:7 as a warning to people that one should not jump to conclusions based on a literal interpretation of single passages in isolation, which would assume that each passage is " محكم " .

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Definition of محكم /muħkæm/ and متشابه /mutæ,ʃæ:bih/
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2010, 19:19 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1784
Location: USA
I talked some more about محكم and other terminology in this post

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Definition of محكم /muħkæm/ and متشابه /mutæ,ʃæ:bih/
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010, 17:19 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2009, 16:10
Posts: 4434
Location: USA
The following are key arguments presented by As-Suyooti,

Linguistic wrote:
وقد حكى ابن حبيب النيسابوري في المسألة ثلاثة أقوال:
أحدها أن القرآن كله محكم لقوله تعالى "كتاب أحكمت أياته".
الثاني كله متشابه لقوله تعالى "كتابا متشابها مثاني"،
الثالث وهو الصحيح انقسامه إلى محكم ومتشابه للآية المصدر بها

Translation:
Ibn Habeeb An-Naysapoori told that there are three opinions in the matter:
One is that the whole of the Quran is "Muhkam", for God says "A Book whose verses have been fixed" (11:1),
The second is that all of it is "Mutashaabih", for God says, "A Book looking alike with dual [verses]" (39:23),
And the third, which is the correct opinion, is that it is divided into "Muhkam" and "Mutashaabih" for the verse in question, 3:7.

My comment:
All three opinions are correct, not just the third one, even as they appear contradictory. Bear with me.

  1. Verse 11:1 makes it clear that the Book's verses have been fixed and then detailed. Thus, all of the verses of the Quran are fixed. None have been abrogated. And they have been detailed in a couple of ways,
    1. If we understand متشابهات to mean "carry multiple meanings", then they are that way on purpose. God wanted all those meanings, arrived at with sound logic, to be applicable. That is out of His generosity and grace. He could have made all verses mean one and only one thing and we would have had to comply. The religion then would have been strict. Instead, the religion is flexible and can accommodate changes in life and in people. Thus, the details God refers to in 11:1 are the variety of acceptable meanings.
    2. If we understand متشابهات to mean "look-alike", which is the literal, linguistic meaning, then that is further support to the fact that they detail the other verses. God explained the same concept in several ways in order for us to understand it fully.
    3. God inspired His messenger, peace be upon him, many hadeeths to explain things to us, thus detailing the Quran. God says,

      And

      If there were abrogated verses in the Quran but neither God nor His messenger have told us about them, that would contradict God's promise in 75:19.
  2. Verse 39:23 simply means that the Quran is consistent. متشابها means "every part of it looks like every other part." It is the opposite of متناقضا.
  3. Verse 3:7, we showed in point 1 above that verses that have multiple meanings detail the other, but all those meanings are consistent as well. They do not contradict each other, nor any other verse.

Quote:
وقال بعضهم الآية لا تدل على الحصر في الشيئين إذ ليس فيها شيء من طرقه، وقد قال تعالى "لتبين للناس ما نزل إليهم"، والمحكم لا تتوقف معرفته على البيان، والمتشابه لا يرجى بيانه

Translation:
Some said the verse, 3:7, does not imply only these two options. God says, "So that you can explain to people what has been sent down to them" (39:23). But the "fixed" does not need explanation and the "look-alike" cannot be hoped to be explained.

My comment:
The explanation meant in 39:23 is the details referred to in 11:1. As for the look-alikes, we said above that they are not mystery, rather they are a grace, a leeway from God.

That's my humble opinion and God knows best.

_________________
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Definition of محكم /muħkæm/ and متشابه /mutæ,ʃæ:bih/
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010, 19:13 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1784
Location: USA
Linguistic wrote:
Verse 11:1 makes it clear that the Book's verses have been fixed and then detailed. Thus, all of the verses of the Quran are fixed. (emphasis added)

You make the key point that seems to be ignored in comparing 11:1 to 3:7. Indeed, 11:1 says


The operative part is "ثم فصلت" which I would translate in today's technical terms as "then were rendered." Thus the verses were perfected first then rendered to us. I think it shows that in spite of being revealed in bits and pieces, each in its own context during the life of the Prophet (PBUH), the whole book had been worked out and perfected ahead of time. The two attributes of God mentioned at the end of the verse fit the two 'stages' of the Quran that the verse referred to. Being "Wise" (حكيم) fits perfecting the book and comes from the same word origin of the verb "أحكمت" that was used, and being "All-familiar" (خبير) fits knowing us well enough to render the book in a form that suits us.

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Definition of محكم /muħkæm/ and متشابه /mutæ,ʃæ:bih/
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010, 06:17 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2009, 16:10
Posts: 4434
Location: USA
Didn't you tell me once, Pragmatic, that 3:7 is itself a perfect example of a "Mutashaabih" verse? That was a clever observation!

Indeed, there are many interpretations of what the word "Mutashaabih" means, but the funny thing is that there are also many interpretations of what the word "Muhkam" means! It is supposed to have one meaning :)

Also, the punctuation before والراسخون في العلم ("and those established in knowledge") has been debated. The majority opinion is that there is a pause before it, which would make the meaning: Only God knows their ultimate meaning. If there is no punctuation and therefore no pause, a minority opinion, then those established in knowledge may also know the ultimate meaning. The consequence of that is people who believe they are established in knowledge may start claiming that they know the ultimate meaning! But even that is not supported by the verse, because only God knows who are established in knowledge!!

Thus, this verse explains itself and explains what Mutashaabih means: IMHO, it means there are multiple meanings in many verses that sound logic can lead to and they are all intended. If God meant to convey only one meaning, He could have easily rephrased the verse and removed any ambiguity. The precise meaning of the word "Mutashaabih" and the purpose of having such verses is, of course, known only to God.

_________________
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Definition of محكم /muħkæm/ and متشابه /mutæ,ʃæ:bih/
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010, 06:27 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1784
Location: USA
Linguistic wrote:
Thus, this verse explains itself and explains what Mutashaabih means: IMHO, it means there are multiple meanings in many verses that sound logic can lead to and they are all intended. If God meant to convey only one meaning, He could have easily rephrased the verse and removed any ambiguity. The precise meaning of the word "Mutashaabih" and the purpose of having such verses is, of course, known only to God.

Well said.

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
It is currently 25 Jun 2017, 17:21

All times are UTC

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group