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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2011, 09:20 
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Linguistic wrote:
Well, that's not entirely accurate.

Maybe I did not make myself clear. What I am asserting is that if a verse is declared abrogated in recitation and in ruling, then whether it is a real verse that was abrogated, or a made-up verse that was claimed to be abrogated, will have the same practical consequence: Whatever it is saying is not to be followed. In the case you cite, the problem arises only if people consider that the ruling was not abrogated, but then that's a different type of abrogation.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2011, 17:50 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Maybe I did not make myself clear. What I am asserting is that if a verse is declared abrogated in recitation and in ruling, then whether it is a real verse that was abrogated, or a made-up verse that was claimed to be abrogated, will have the same practical consequence: Whatever it is saying is not to be followed.

As a good friend of mine used to say, "Now I understand your brain!" :)

Yes, I agree with you. What I was focusing on, is the consequence of giving credence to a claim of abrogation of recitation and/or ruling. The consequences can be very serious.

In addition to the seriousness of the matter as it pertains to marriage, we have another serious matter that pertains to law and to faith. Here we have a narration declared authentic by the majority, whose ruling the majority has rejected! Furthermore, the narration attributes change of mind to God! What could possibly be the reason for setting the minimum sucklings to ten then changing that later to five? What exactly has changed in the physical law of suckling or the society at the time between these two rulings that caused the change in ruling? Even human lawmakers do not change their rulings without a reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2011, 19:17 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Interestingly, that has been my view, too. I could not exclude abrogation of both recitation and ruling. I do feel that this type of abrogation never happened, but I am not as confident of that as I am with the other types.

Al-Jabri makes an interesting point, in his book الناسخ والمنسوخ بين الإثبات والنفي, pages 200-201, that addresses this issue. He asks (my translation of parts of his writeup),

"The novelty of abrogation, as defined by latecomers, after the age of the Sahaaba and the Banu Umayya rule, is a farce; one of the biggest intellectual farces in the history of the knowledge-base of the Quran.

I can't fathom how is it that the most intimate details of the Prophet's daily life (PBUH) were narrated to us accurately and authentically, while some Quranic verses were claimed forgotten or abrogated and we don't quite know about them! You'd think that if that ever happened, it would be the talk of the town; it would shake the foundation of Muslim society and cause a bigger noise than the story of the Night and Ascension Journey did.

How is it that complete, long poems from the pre-Islamic era were perfectly preserved, but some Quranic verses were not?

Such is the height of ignorance and a lasting shame on the Arab narrators who related it to us."

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2013, 21:48 
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Linguistic wrote:

الرابعة النسخ أقسام:
أحدها نسخ المأمور به قبل امتثاله وهو النسخ على الحقيقة كآية النجوى.


Brief translation:
  • Abrogating a command before it was complied with, such as 58:12. The problem with this example is that it was complied with. By Ali ibn Abi-Taalib, may God have been pleased with him.


The part I did not translate is "That is true abrogation!" Should we then conclude that As-Suyooti did not think that any abrogation claim was true, except that of 58:12?

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2013, 12:38 
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Pragmatic wrote:
The 50 prayers command is a counter example. I don't see any problem with changing commands

This is another point on which we disagree. But that's OK, because I concede that my argument is harder to make than yours. Mine depends on a Qudsi hadeeth that is not easy to understand.

So, let me try another approach; the parable of a teacher in a class. He may teach some subject in one class period and he may teach another subject in multiple periods. The latter would be necessary if the students need to go through certain exercises before they can proceed to the next stage in the lesson. In the estimation of the teacher, they wouldn't learn the lesson otherwise.

Think of the 50-prayer event as a compound command. Its first stage is a test of compliance. The Prophet (PBUH) passed that test with flying colors, because he took the command without hesitation and proceeded as if it was complete. He fully expected that he was on his way back to earth with a 50-prayer mandate.

Another perfect example of a compound command is Abraham's sacrifice, peace be upon him.

And isn't it true that specifications and exceptions are types of compound commands?

Indeed, many abrogation cases are compound commands confused for abrogation. Some scholars, such as As-Suyooti have recognized that compound commands are not abrogation cases but "deferred" commands (منسأ). Abdul-Kareem Al-Khateeb agreed and echoed Az-Zarkashi's words, according to Dr. Husayn Nassaar in his book الناسخ والمنسوخ في القرآن الكريم, page 40.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2013, 21:44 
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Linguistic wrote:
Pragmatic wrote:
The 50 prayers command is a counter example. I don't see any problem with changing commands

This is another point on which we disagree. But that's OK, because I concede that my argument is harder to make than yours. Mine depends on a Qudsi hadeeth that is not easy to understand.

So, let me try another approach; the parable of a teacher in a class. He may teach some subject in one class period and he may teach another subject in multiple periods. The latter would be necessary if the students need to go through certain exercises before they can proceed to the next stage in the lesson. In the estimation of the teacher, they wouldn't learn the lesson otherwise.

Think of the 50-prayer event as a compound command. Its first stage is a test of compliance. The Prophet (PBUH) passed that test with flying colors, because he took the command without hesitation and proceeded as if it was complete. He fully expected that he was on his way back to earth with a 50-prayer mandate.

Another perfect example of a compound command is Abraham's sacrifice, peace be upon him.

And isn't it true that specifications and exceptions are types of compound commands?

Indeed, many abrogation cases are compound commands confused for abrogation. Some scholars, such as As-Suyooti have recognized that compound commands are not abrogation cases but "postponed" commands (منسأ).

This point has to be settled if we are to have a uniform message. An abrogated command is one that had to be followed at some point in time, and at a later point in time had no element that needed to be followed. What we agree on is that there are no abrogated verses in the text of the Quran. This does not require that there would be no abrogation period. In fact, we agree that one divine book may abrogate a previous divine book entirely. For instance, some foods that were prohibited before Jesus became allowed after he came. Let me now ask point blank. Do you agree that this is a case of abrogation?

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 24 Jul 2013, 13:31 
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Pragmatic wrote:
This point has to be settled if we are to have a uniform message.

While I like to settle this point, it isn't necessary to have a uniform message, as it does not pertain to the abrogation doctrine, by which we mean abrogation of verses in the bound volume of the Quran.

Pragmatic wrote:
An abrogated command is one that had to be followed at some point in time, and at a later point in time had no element that needed to be followed.

This is a good definition of an abrogated command, but it is missing a qualifier: complete. We only know if a command is complete if no further command pertaining to it is issued later, or if God (or His Messenger) say it's complete.

This is what I believe the Salaf meant by منسأ. They meant a component of a compound command that it delayed until it was the right time to issue it. This is what Az-Zarkashi has clearly stated. His conclusion was that there were no verses in the Quran that were abrogated in any way, but rather verses whose full verdict has taken more than one command spread over time.

Pragmatic wrote:
What we agree on is that there are no abrogated verses in the text of the Quran. This does not require that there would be no abrogation period.

While that is true, I became convinced, after reading Ataaya's book, that no abrogation of divine books took place. What the Quran abrogated was not the Torah and the Gospel, but the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Pragmatic wrote:
For instance, some foods that were prohibited before Jesus became allowed after he came. Let me now ask point blank. Do you agree that this is a case of abrogation?

Actually, no. Here is why. The command to forbid certain foods was a punishment from God to the Israelites, evidenced by the first four words of the verse,

Those foods became allowed to the Jews who accepted Jesus. That is the contingency of the new command, evidenced by the last three words of the verse,

Notice how he says "Confirming what is before me of the Torah"? The Gospel came to confirm the Torah and abrogate the Old Testament.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 24 Jul 2013, 14:02 
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Pragmatic wrote:
What we agree on is that there are no abrogated verses in the text of the Quran. This does not require that there would be no abrogation period. In fact, we agree that one divine book may abrogate a previous divine book entirely. For instance, some foods that were prohibited before Jesus became allowed after he came. Let me now ask point blank. Do you agree that this is a case of abrogation?

According to Dr. Husayn Nassaar, in his book الناسخ والمنسوخ في القرآن الكريم, page18, Ar-Raaghib Al-Asfahaani agrees with you. He says that abrogation in the foundational commands is invalid. He cites for evidence,

But, he says it can and has happened in the details. He sees the details customized for each community and cites for evidence,

It is a good point. And Imaam Muhammad Abduh agreed that it is only the "practical commands" that have been abrogated as the needs of people changed, according to Dr. Husayn Nassaar, in his book الناسخ والمنسوخ في القرآن الكريم, page 35. But he adds that Abduh accepted that "just like some commands in one divine law abrogate commands in another, so may some commands in a divine law abrogate others in the same law!"

If this is true, then Abduh approved of the abrogation doctrine, but from all I read, he did not.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 24 Jul 2013, 23:04 
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Linguistic wrote:
While I like to settle this point, it isn't necessary to have a uniform message, as it does not pertain to the abrogation doctrine, by which we mean abrogation of verses in the bound volume of the Quran.

I wish. Unfortunately, the interpretation of 2:106 which a cornerstone in our message is at stake.

I find it indisputable that previous books, in their original uncorrupted version, mandated fasting that is not our Ramadan fasting, and that such fasting is not mandated on us. There is absolutely no way around that in my mind. One can argue anything in labored ways, like many scholars argued for the abrogation doctrine, but when all is said and done an argument has to pass our own logic to be accepted.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2013, 12:20 
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Linguistic wrote:
While that is true, I became convinced, after reading Ataaya's book, that no abrogation of divine books took place. What the Quran abrogated was not the Torah and the Gospel, but the Old Testament and the New Testament.

While abrogating the Old Testament and the New Testament, in and of itself, does not preclude abrogating the Torah and the Gospel, it is worth looking at this verse

as the object of abrogation in it is not a verse, but what Satan injected.

One more point. I thought the verse

provides further evidence of abrogation between different messages, and makes it clear that this does not contradict that it is the same Lord who had different dictates. Then again I am already convinced of that.

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