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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2013, 13:22 
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Linguistic wrote:
I've been leaning toward "edition" as a translation of naskh. A new edition of a book may change all or part of an older edition, but may add details and elaborations as well. That is what naskh is.

If "edition" is not to your liking, how about "reissuance"? When a directive is reissued, it may modify all or part of the previous directive, but may elaborate it further, itemize its options, its exceptions, etc. That is what naskh is.

Other words, such as "modification", "amendment", "revision", according to the English thesaurus, all have the connotation of realizing an error and fixing it.

I think there is no single English word that captures all meanings of the word naskh. One of the meanings is abrogation, another is copying, and the words you used capture many shades very nicely. The goal here is to use the word that is closest to the meaning intended in Arabic in each case by itself, so it would be modification or something similar for most of Ibn Abbas' narrations, and would be annulment/abrogation in this verse for example:


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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2013, 14:06 
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Quoting Ali Is_haaq Shawwaakh, from his book معجم مصنفات القرآن الكريم, volume 1, pages 225-226, Dr. M. Ibrahim Faaris, in his book صفوة الراسخ في علم المنسوخ والناسخ, page 41, mentions why some scholars have rejected the type of abrogation of text but not of ruling. Among the reasons presented are:

  • It implies change of mind, which is impossible for God.
  • Rephrasing is something that people do because of their lack of forward thinking. It does not befit God.
  • Every text claimed to have been Quran is inferior in its style to that of the Quran.
  • The Quran is what has been conveyed to us ubiquitously. Anything less is not therefore Quran.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2013, 14:21 
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Dr. M. Ibrahim Faaris, in his book صفوة الراسخ في علم المنسوخ والناسخ, page 42, talks about the type of abrogation of both text and ruling. He says that Judge Abu-Bakr has reported that some scholars have rejected that type of abrogation because all narrations about it are singles, and they asserted that no decision on revelation of a verse or abrogation thereof can be made using a single narration chain, because that is an uncertain evidence (ظني).

He says that Dr. Mannaa` Al-Qattaan, in his book مباحث في علوم القرآن, pages 238-240, answered that by saying that proving revelation is different from proving abrogation. The former must be with certain, ubiquitous narration, but the latter may be with less than ubiquitous text.

Huh? When was that rule established? By what authority? Didn't scholars already agree, as shown in the previous post, that the abrogator must be equal in authenticity or exceeds that of the abrogated?

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2013, 14:30 
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Linguistic wrote:
  • Abrogating commands not mentioned in the Quran, such as Qibla toward Jerusalem and fasting on the tenth of Muharram. To call this an abrogation is overreaching. There is no evidence that the initial practices were by order from God.

Dr. M. Ibrahim Faaris comments on this in his book صفوة الراسخ في علم المنسوخ والناسخ, page 44, by saying that the majority of scholars agree on that. He gives two examples: Abrogation of Qibla toward Jerusalem and abrogation of fasting in `Aashuraa'. He sad that both abrogated rulings were established by the Sunna and that there is nothing in the Quran that implies them.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2013, 18:12 
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Shu`la, in his book صفوة الراسخ في علم المنسوخ والناسخ, presented by Dr. M. Ibrahim Faaris, page 95, reports a strange story narrated by Ibn Mas`ood (RA). In it he says that the Prophet (PBUH) had him memorize a verse and he wrote it in his own mus-haf (bound volume of te Quran). Next morning, he could not remember it, so he opened his mus-haf to check it and found its space blank! He went to the Prohet (PBUH) to tell him and the Prophet (PBUH) said to him, "It was lifted yesterday."

Dr. Faaris, in the footnotes, refers the reader to four different chapters in Al-Bukhaari's authentic compilations of hadeeth for authentication of this story. So, I decided to look for it there. It's not in any of the four chapters he mentioned! It's not anywhere else in Al-Bukhaari's book. I continued looking for it in other books. It's not in any other book that I could find. The only similar story is reported as authentic only by Ibn Taymiya in his book الفتاوى (rulings) and narrated by Sahl ibn Haneef. It refers to an unnamed man and not Ibn Mas`ood.

I don't understand how Shu`la would attribute to Ibn Mas`ood something he didn't say, or why would Dr. Faaris make the reader think a story is authentic just to claim that abrogation from the Quran has happened.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2013, 11:47 
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Linguistic wrote:
Dr. Faaris, in the footnotes, refers the reader to four different chapters in Al-Bukhaari's authentic compilations of hadeeth for authentication of this story. So, I decided to look for it there. It's not in any of the four chapters he mentioned! It's not anywhere else in Al-Bukhaari's book. I continued looking for it in other books. It's not in any other book that I could find. The only similar story is reported as authentic only by Ibn Taymiya in his book الفتاوى (rulings) and narrated by Sahl ibn Haneef. It refers to an unnamed man and not Ibn Mas`ood.

This is pretty serious. Is the search you did conclusive? I remember reading about "رفعت البارحة" and I didn't pursue it since it has no bearing on the abrogation doctrine, strange as it may be.

BTW, the rating "authentic" is applied to narrations by singles, right? I think in our argument we should emphasize the "single" aspect especially in specific abrogation claims. The methodology of the scholars in transcribing the Quran was that a Quranic verse cannot be certified for inclusion by singles, regardless of how authentic, so it definitely cannot be annulled by singles. If annulling by singles was allowed, the last two suras in the Quran would be gone due to none other than Ibn Mas'oud (RA).

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2013, 21:14 
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Pragmatic wrote:
This is pretty serious. Is the search you did conclusive?

I did all I could. And today, I looked up the story in the famous index book المعجم المفهرس لألفاظ الحديث النبوي, by M. Fu'aad Abdul-Baaqi. It's not there either. His index book covers nine Hadeeth books, the top six plus Ibn Hanbal's, Maalik's and Ad-Daarimi's.


Pragmatic wrote:
BTW, the rating "authentic" is applied to narrations by singles, right? I think in our argument we should emphasize the "single" aspect especially in specific abrogation claims. The methodology of the scholars in transcribing the Quran was that a Quranic verse cannot be certified for inclusion by singles, regardless of how authentic, so it definitely cannot be annulled by singles.

That's right. Scholars have largely agreed that the abrogator must be stronger in force or equal to the abrogated.

There are only some 300 hadeeths that are ubiquitous (متواتر). The rest of the roughly 9000 hadeeths rated authentic are singles.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2013, 18:16 
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Pragmatic wrote:
I find it indisputable that previous books, in their original uncorrupted version, mandated fasting that is not our Ramadan fasting,

In his discussion of whether 2:183 was abrogated, Abu-Abdillah Shu`la, in his book صفوة الراسخ في علم المنسوخ والناسخ, page 107, mentions Mujaahid's interpretation of the simile particle in 2:183. Mujaahid's opinion is that prior nations were required to fast the month of Ramadhaan but they changed that teaching. Qataada agreed.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of abrogation
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2013, 21:16 
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Linguistic wrote:
Pragmatic wrote:
I find it indisputable that previous books, in their original uncorrupted version, mandated fasting that is not our Ramadan fasting,

In his discussion of whether 2:183 was abrogated, Abu-Abdillah Shu`la, in his book صفوة الراسخ في علم المنسوخ والناسخ, page 107, mentions Mujaahid's interpretation of the simile particle in 2:183. Mujaahid's opinion is that prior nations were required to fast the month of Ramadhaan but they changed that teaching. Qataada agreed.

I would be stunned why there wouldn't be any trace of that in any history, even in fringe sects of previous religions. I just don't buy that at all.

How about Aashoura? Isn't it authentic that it was mandated fast for the Jews?

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