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 Post subject: Re: Scholars opinions about abrogation
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2010, 03:15 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Some Anti-Abrogation Scholars
...
  • Ahmad Hasan Al-Baqoury
  • Abdul-Razzaq Noufal
  • Muhammad Al-Ghazali Al-Saqqa (I assume that's Sheikh Al-Ghazali)
  • Abdullah Al-Alayli (from Lebanon)

Yes, Al-Ghazaali As-Saqqa is the well-known Shaykh Al-Ghazaali (d. 1996 A.D.). Al-Baaqoori (d. 1985 A.D.) was a minister of endowments in Egypt and the dean of Al-Azhar. Nawfal (d. 1984 A.D.) was a pioneer of linking science with the Quran and he is the author of a leading book on numerical miracles of the Quran, a controversial, debatable subject.

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 Post subject: Re: Scholars opinions about abrogation
PostPosted: 03 May 2010, 06:16 
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Quote of Ibn Al-Qayyem

On page 178 of Al-Jabri's book, Ibn Al-Qayyem is quoted as saying that interpreting the abrogating and abrogated as lifting a ruling completely is a convention of the later scholars. For the forefathers (السلف), it is explaining a meaning not through the (abrogated) text itself, but through something external to it, such as specialization, exception, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Scholars opinions about abrogation
PostPosted: 03 May 2010, 16:50 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Quote of Ibn Al-Qayyem

On page 178 of Al-Jabri's book, Ibn Al-Qayyem is quoted as saying that interpreting the abrogating and abrogated as lifting a ruling completely is a convention of the later scholars. For the forefathers (السلف), it is explaining a meaning not through the (abrogated) text itself, but through something external to it, such as specialization, exception, etc.

That's an extremely valuable quote because it comes from a universally revered scholar and it supports our conclusion about the misuse and mistranslation of the word naskh, which, IMHO, is at the core of the problem with the abrogation doctrine. Once you realize that all those reports attributed to Ibn Abbaas, may God have been pleased with him, are not talking about abrogation, the doctrine falls on its face.

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 Post subject: Re: Scholars opinions about abrogation
PostPosted: 03 May 2010, 20:51 
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In the introduction to his book لانسخ في القرآن, Dr. Ahmad Hijaazi As-Saqqa quotes an official statement issued by the Assembly of Islamic Research at Al-Azhar مجمع البحوث الإسلامية that stated,

إن مجمع البحوث الإسلامية بالأزهر الشريف ليهولنه أن يوجد فيمن ينتسبون إلى الإسلام، من يطعن في كتابه فيزعم في خطبة علنية أن نصفه منسوخ أو متناقض وقد بطل العمل به.
تلك هي الصيحة الآثمة الباطلة التي رمي بها الإسلام وكتابه، وهو الكتاب الذي يقول الله فيه: "ذلك بأن الله نزل الكتاب بالحق" (البقرة ١٧٦) وهو الكتاب الذي أحكم بيانه، وفصلت أحكامه "كتاب أحكمت آياته ثم فصلت من لدن حكيم خبير" (أول هود)، وهو الحق الذي لامرية في صدقه، ولااعتراض عليه، "ذلك الكتاب لاريب فيه هدى للمتقين" (البقرة ٢) إن هذه الدعوة كفر بكتاب الله.
وإن مشيخة الأزهر لتهيب بالعالم الإسلامي، بل بكل مسلم أن ينصب نفسه لاتقاء تلك الآثام، ومدافعة هذه الشرور. اهـ
مجلة الأزهر عدد أبريل ١٩٧٥ صفحات ٢٦٥-٢٦٨

Translation:
"The Assembly of Islamic Research at the Noble Azhar, is outraged that some who claim they belong to Islam accuse its Book and declare in a public sermon that half of it is abrogated or contradictory and has not been followed.
That is the evil, false cry with which Islam and its Book have been assailed, while it is the Book in which God says, 'That is because God has sent down the Book in truth' (2:176). It is the Book whose explanation has been clearly made, and its rulings detailed: 'A Book whose verses have been set then detailed, intimately from a Wise, Knowledgeable One' (11:1). It is the truth in which there is no doubt and no objection: 'That is the Book no doubt in it [is] guidance for the watchful [of God].' (2:2). Such call is a disbelief in the Book of God.
The leadership of Al-Azhar pleads with the Islamic world, even with every Muslim to stand ready to protect himself from those sins and fending off these evils."
Al-Azhar Magazine, April 1975, Pages 265-268.

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 Post subject: Re: Scholars opinions about abrogation
PostPosted: 04 May 2010, 03:49 
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Linguistic wrote:
Pragmatic wrote:
Quote of Ibn Al-Qayyem

On page 178 of Al-Jabri's book, Ibn Al-Qayyem is quoted as saying that interpreting the abrogating and abrogated as lifting a ruling completely is a convention of the later scholars. For the forefathers (السلف), it is explaining a meaning not through the (abrogated) text itself, but through something external to it, such as specialization, exception, etc.

That's an extremely valuable quote because it comes from a universally revered scholar and it supports our conclusion about the misuse and mistranslation of the word naskh, which, IMHO, is at the core of the problem with the abrogation doctrine. Once you realize that all those reports attributed to Ibn Abbaas, may God have been pleased with him, are not talking about abrogation, the doctrine falls on its face.

On page 199, Al-Jabri gives the reference for this quote: أعلام الموقعين , part 1, page 39. There is another copy of that book, apparently with different page numbering, from which Al-Jabri quotes part 1, page 12 with Ibn Al-Qayyem saying about the use of the forefathers of the word naskh to mean things other than abrogation "and if you observe their words, you will find innumerable examples of this, and you will remove dilemmas dictated by interpreting their words according to the later-occurring convention."

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 Post subject: Re: Scholars opinions about abrogation
PostPosted: 04 May 2010, 05:55 
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Al-Jabri vs. Zaid vs. Farghali

Al-Jabri tells of two amusing stories on pages 198-199 of his book about debates he had with Mostafa Zaid and Muhammad Farghali after he published the first edition of his book and after the two finished their doctoral work on abrogation.

The first debate with Mostafa Zaid was in Dar-El-Oloum club in Cairo, attended by some of their professors, colleagues, and some students. After the debate between Al-Jabri and Zaid, there was voting about who prevailed and, according to Al-Jabri, he won by a vast majority with the only people voting for Zaid being one female and two male students of Zaid.

The second debate was with Farghali in the home of a judge, and was attended by scholars and lawyers. Al-Jabri said to Farghali that Zaid had said that he agreed with Al-Jabri in all he said except for four claims of abrogation that he approves (notice that he mentions four not five). Al-Jabri then asked Farghali how much he agrees with Zaid about. Farghali reportedly answered that he disagrees with all four claims of Zaid, and that he was able to reconcile each one of them, but he has his own four claims that he approves of and that are different from Zaid's.

Al-Jabri then talks victoriously about the absolute lack of consensus, and refutes the claim that the consensus about abrogation is evidence that it is true.

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 Post subject: Re: Scholars opinions about abrogation
PostPosted: 04 May 2010, 06:11 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Linguistic wrote:
Would he, given this job, leave us guessing about the validity of verses of the Quran, when he was able to so clearly state the abrogation of some of his rulings?

This statement, and the post as a whole, is the best articulation I have read of that piece of circumstantial evidence against the abrogation doctrine.

Al-Jabri talks forcefully about this point at the conclusion of his book on pages 200-201. He makes a fantastic point that not only relates to abrogation, but also relates to doubts about the hadeeths on account of the gap of more than 100 years before they started being transcribed. He gives the example of the pre-islamic poetry that remained absolutely intact in spite of being of far less importance than the narrations of the Prophet (PBUH). Brilliant!

Anyway, the way he used this point was to assert, in a mocking tone, that the minutest details about the actions of the Prophet were laboriously documented, and that he tackled the minutest details the affect the lives of Muslims, so it is absurd that he wouldn't tell us which verses were abrogated, and it's absurd that he could have told us that but it didn't make it to the era of writing the hadeeth.

Linguistic, you used the expression that abrogation is the biggest fitna in the history of Islamic scholarship. If you are concerned that this may be an aggressive statement, you should know that Al-Jabri, at the end of his book, described the abrogation doctrine's lack of authentic text to affirm it as the biggest practical joke (مهزلة) in the history of narration.

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 Post subject: Re: Scholars opinions about abrogation
PostPosted: 04 May 2010, 06:15 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Al-Jabri vs. Zaid vs. Farghali
...
Al-Jabri then talks victoriously about the absolute lack of consensus, and refutes the claim that the consensus about abrogation is evidence that it is true.

Hardly a consensus. Even if we take out all the anti-abrogation scholars, each of whom is indisputably knowledgeable, pious and professionally licensed, you are left with only one case that the rest agree on: 58:13/58:12, which is academic since it applies to the Prophet only and has no bearing on Muslims after the prophet's death. The fact that Dr. Farghali concluded a different set from Zaid's, narrows the consensus even more.

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 Post subject: Re: Definition of abrogation
PostPosted: 04 May 2010, 23:57 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Linguistic, you used the expression that abrogation is the biggest fitna in the history of Islamic scholarship. If you are concerned that this may be an aggressive statement, you should know that Al-Jabri, at the end of his book, described the abrogation doctrine's lack of authentic text to affirm it as the biggest practical joke (مهزلة) in the history of narration.

According to this article, two extreme opinions were made about abrogation:

والخلاف الحقيقي واقع مع بعض أهل التفريط الذين جعلوا النسخ ذريعة لهدم الشريعة، مثل أحمد أمين الذي طلب ترك بعض أحكام القرآن بحجة عجيبة وكبرت كلمة قالها، قال: (إذا كانت أحكام تبدلت في أقل من ربع قرن فإن حكمة التبديل أظهر بعد مرور أربعة عشر قرناً)[13].

وهذا الجور في التفريط مقابل بإفراط وذلك أن هلال السعيدي النحوي قال: (ولو راجع من أنكر النسخ في القرآن ورفع حكم بحكم –وقد اعترض سنته وخاصم عقله رأيه- لعلم أن القائل هذا القول غير مؤمن بل هو كافر جاحد لما جاء به الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم يلزمه الرجوع عن هذا المذهب أو القتل)[14].
[13] ص244 من "نظرات في القرآن". لمحمد الغزالي، الطبعة الرابعة 1383هـ/ 1963م، دار الكتب الحديثة.
[14] انظر: ص354 من "النسخ في الشريعة الإسلامية كما أفهمه"، نقلا من كتاب "الإيجاز في معرفة ما في القرآن من منسوخ وناسخ" المخطوط بدار الكتب المصرية برقم 1088

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 Post subject: Re: Definition of abrogation
PostPosted: 05 May 2010, 01:05 
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Linguistic wrote:
القائل هذا القول غير مؤمن بل هو كافر جاحد لما جاء به الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم يلزمه الرجوع عن هذا المذهب أو القتل

Talk about peer pressure. :D

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