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 Post subject: Re: Scholars opinions about abrogation
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 07:23 
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Linguistic wrote:
Dr. Husayn Nassaar, in his book الناسخ والمنسوخ في القرآن الكريم, page 12, reports the opinion of Dr. Abdul-Mun`im An-Nimr who said that no abrogation occurred in the Meccan part of the Quran at all and that the first abrogation event took place in Medina, 17 months after the migration, and it was the change of Qibla (prayer direction).

Al-Nimr does that on pages 204,205, and he authenticates the narration of Ibn Abbas about that.

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 Post subject: Re: Scholars who rejected all claims of abrogation in the Quran
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 07:25 
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Linguistic wrote:
Apparently, but not certain:
  • 13. Dr. Abdul-Mun`im An-Nimr.

Well, he rejected all of them but one, which is 4:15-16 (one of the easiest to dismiss).

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 Post subject: Re: Scholars opinions about abrogation
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2019, 17:15 
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Linguistic wrote:
Linguistic wrote:
He (Dr. Faaris) repeats the shaky story of هلكت وأهلكت (alledged to Ali) without authenticating it.

On page 33, he promises to authenticate that story in the introduction of the book author, Shu`la, but he actually doesn't. Instead, he refers the reader to the book الإتقان في علوم القرآن, by As-Suyooti, volume 2, page 20.

So, I decided to look it up. I didn't find it! What I found, on page 55, is a mention of the story without a narration chain.

So, I decided to look it up the narration myself. What I found is this,

انتَهى عليٌّ إلى رجلٍ وَهوَ يقصُّ فقالَ علمتَ النَّاسخَ من المنسوخِ ؟ قالَ : لا قالَ : هلَكتَ وأَهلَكتَ

Translation: Ali encountered a man telling stories. He asked him: Do you know the abrogating from the abrogated? He said: No. He said: You are doomed and you caused doom.

The narration is made by Abu-`Abdir-Rahmaan As-Salmi and reported and rated authentic by Ibn Muflih in his book الآداب الشرعية (Legal Disciplines), volume 2, page 86.

This confirms that the man in question is not a judge, as quoters of the story often have reported, but a story teller. Such is not expected to know of abrogation. The narration, and Ali's words, are general. The man could have been telling Israelite stories for all we know. How such a flimsy story keeps being cited as evidence for abrogation is beyond me.

The narrator's name appears as Abu-`Abdir-Rahmaan Al-Juhani, instead of As-Salmi, in a narration rated authentic by Al-Albaani and reported by Abu-Khaythama in his book العلم, page 130. That narration too mentions nothing about what the story teller was talking about.

Then I found the narration, attributed to Ibn Abbaas by Ad-Dhahhaak ibn Muzaahim. That narration is not clearly rated but it has, in its chain of narrators, a man by the name of Abu-Ya`la Raashid, a servant of the Banu `Aamir folk and no one has evaluated his credibility. The narration appears in the book مجمع الزوائد, volume 1, page 159, by Al-Haythami.

BTW, As-Suyooti mentions, on page 55 of that book, the name of the hadeeth reporter Abu-Daawood as one of the scholars who wrote about and classified abrogation. But I haven't seen any of his writing about that, nor any other reference to him as an abrogation scholar elsewhere.

Those are the only three versions of the story found narrated in the Dorar database (http://www.dorar.net/hadith) of Saudi Arabia. Worth noting are:
  • The version attributed to Ibn Abbaas is clearly inauthentic.
  • The versions attributed to Ali are rated authentic. One doesn't say why. The other says it meets chain conditions required by both Al-Bukhaari and Muslim, but that can't be because one of their conditions is first-hand encounter (الحِس), i.e., the narrator has to say that he heard it directly from Ali. Neither narration say so.

Here are the three narrations,

- انتَهى عليٌّ إلى رجلٍ وَهوَ يقصُّ فقالَ علمتَ النَّاسخَ من المنسوخِ ؟ قالَ : لا قالَ : هلَكتَ وأَهلَكتَ .
الراوي : أبو عبدالرحمن السلمي | المحدث : ابن مفلح | المصدر : الآداب الشرعية
الصفحة أو الرقم: 2/86 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : إسناده صحيح

- مرَّ ابنُ عباسٍ بقاصٍّ فركله برجلِه فقال أتدرِي ما الناسخُ والمنسوخُ قال وما الناسخُ والمنسوخُ قال فما تدري ما الناسخُ والمنسوخُ قال لا قال هلكتَ وأهلكتَ
الراوي : الضحاك بن مزاحم | المحدث : الهيثمي | المصدر : مجمع الزوائد
الصفحة أو الرقم: 1/159 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : فيه أبو يعلى راشد مولى بني عامر ولم أر من ذكره‏‏

- أنَّ عليًّا عليهِ السلامُ مرَّ بقاصٍّ ، فقال : أتعرفُ النَّاسخَ مِنَ المنسوخِ ؟ قال : لا ، قال : هلكْتَ وأهلكْتَ .
الراوي : أبو عبدالرحمن الجهني | المحدث : الألباني | المصدر : العلم لأبي خيثمة
الصفحة أو الرقم: 130 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : إسناده صحيح على شرط الشيخين

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 Post subject: Re: Scholars opinions about abrogation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2019, 06:31 
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Linguistic wrote:
Those are the only three versions of the story found narrated in the Dorar database (http://www.dorar.net/hadith) of Saudi Arabia. Worth noting are:
  • The version attributed to Ibn Abbaas is clearly inauthentic.
  • The versions attributed to Ali are rated authentic. One doesn't say why. The other says it meets chain conditions required by both Al-Bukhaari and Muslim, but that can't be because one of their conditions is first-hand encounter (الحِس), i.e., the narrator has to say that he heard it directly from Ali. Neither narration say so.

Here are the three narrations,

- انتَهى عليٌّ إلى رجلٍ وَهوَ يقصُّ فقالَ علمتَ النَّاسخَ من المنسوخِ ؟ قالَ : لا قالَ : هلَكتَ وأَهلَكتَ .
الراوي : أبو عبدالرحمن السلمي | المحدث : ابن مفلح | المصدر : الآداب الشرعية
الصفحة أو الرقم: 2/86 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : إسناده صحيح

- مرَّ ابنُ عباسٍ بقاصٍّ فركله برجلِه فقال أتدرِي ما الناسخُ والمنسوخُ قال وما الناسخُ والمنسوخُ قال فما تدري ما الناسخُ والمنسوخُ قال لا قال هلكتَ وأهلكتَ
الراوي : الضحاك بن مزاحم | المحدث : الهيثمي | المصدر : مجمع الزوائد
الصفحة أو الرقم: 1/159 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : فيه أبو يعلى راشد مولى بني عامر ولم أر من ذكره‏‏

- أنَّ عليًّا عليهِ السلامُ مرَّ بقاصٍّ ، فقال : أتعرفُ النَّاسخَ مِنَ المنسوخِ ؟ قال : لا ، قال : هلكْتَ وأهلكْتَ .
الراوي : أبو عبدالرحمن الجهني | المحدث : الألباني | المصدر : العلم لأبي خيثمة
الصفحة أو الرقم: 130 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : إسناده صحيح على شرط الشيخين

Great information!

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