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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2010, 17:54 
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Linguistic wrote:
Shah Waliullah accepted the abrogation claim of 8:65. It was Ibn Al-Jawzi, An-Nahhaas and Makki who did not.

My bad. It's right there in the first post of the thread by me. :)

This makes it less urgent to try to get Shah Waliullah's book as far as I am concerned, and also confirms that the three cases 8:65, 58:12, and 73:1-4 are the last line of defense for the abrogation doctrine.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2010, 23:39 
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Ali Hasan Al-Areedh settles on five cases,

2:187/2:183,
24:2/4:15-16,
8:66/8:65,
58:13/58:12 and
73:20/73:1-4.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 19 Apr 2010, 22:57 
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Linguistic wrote:
Ali Hasan Al-Areedh settles on five cases,

2:187/2:183,
...

This is a pretty weak case. Strange that it survived as one of five.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2010, 04:14 
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Ali Hasan Al-Areedh, in his book فتح المنان في نسخ القرآن, writes about some of the scholars who wrote about abrogation and how many cases they have decided on, as follows:

  • Muhammad Ibn Hazm: 214
  • Abu-Ja`far An-Nahhaas: 138
  • Abul-Qaasim Hibatullah Ibn Salaama: 235
  • Abdul-Qaahir Al-Baghdaadi: 66 (Haani Taahir says they are 75)
  • Abdul-Qaadir Muhammad ibn Barakaat ibn Hilaal: 220
  • Al-Haafiz ibn Khuzayma Al-Faarisi: 202
  • Abdur-Rahmaan ibn Ali ibn Al-Jawzi: 274
  • Abdur-Rahmaan Jalaal-ud-Deen As-Suyooti: 20
  • Mar`i ibn Yoosuf Al-Maqdisi Al-Karmi: 218
  • Atiyyatullah ibn Al-Ajhoori: 213
  • Abdul-Azeem Az-Zurqaani, Professor in Usool Ad-Deen College: 7 (I counted 11)
  • Dr. Muhammad Su`aad Jalaal, Professor in Sharia and Law school of Al-Azhar: 4
  • Dr. Mostafa Zaid, Professor in Daar-ul-Uloom College in Cairo: 5

And after reading such a list, didn't anybody pause to think: How can there be such discrepancy? Where is the consensus everybody is saying is there?

Such disagreement results in a fundamental problem: If a judge is asked to rule in a dispute, and the matter of the dispute is covered by a verse claimed abrogate by some and not abrogated by others, how can the judge rule in the matter? God describes the Quran as the decisive word, in

and calls the Quran the discernment in,

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2010, 04:36 
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Linguistic wrote:
Ali Hasan Al-Areedh, in his book فتح المنان في نسخ القرآن, writes about some of the scholars who wrote about abrogation and how many cases they have decided on, as follows:

  • Abdul-Azeem Az-Zurqaani, Professor in Usool Ad-Deen College: 7 (I counted 11)


According to Al-Areedh, the seven cases listed in Az-Zurqaani's book مناهل العرفان في علوم القرآن, which Al-Areedh says is printed and available, are:

1. The "will verse", 2:180.
2. The "waiting period verse", 2:240.
3. The "Musaabara (steadfastness) verse", 8:65.
4. The verse punishing debauchery, 4:15.
5. The verse forbidding the prophet to marry anymore, 33:52.
6. The "private consultation verse", 58:12.
7. The "night prayer" verses, 73:2-4.

That is probably more accurate than this reference, (Admin note: Surf with caution) which adds the following cases:

8. The fasting allowance verse, 2:184.
9. The "accounting of thoughts" verse, 2:284.
10. The "true piety" verse, 3:102.
11. The "marriage to fornicators" verse, 24:3.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2010, 05:08 
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Linguistic wrote:
Ali Hasan Al-Areedh, in his book فتح المنان في نسخ القرآن, writes about some of the scholars who wrote about abrogation and how many cases they have decided on, as follows:

  • Dr. Muhammad Su`aad Jalaal, Professor in Sharia and Law school of Al-Azhar: 4

Al-Areedh lists those, which he says are only available in lecture notes the Professor handed out to his students, are:

1. The "Self accounting" verse, 2:284.
2. The "Musaabara" verse, 8:65.
3. The "private consultation" verse, 58:12.
4. The "night prayer" verses, 73:2-4.

Al-Areedh concludes that the consensus therefore is,
4:15-16,
8:65,
58:12, and
73:2-4.

Thus, he quickly dismisses Professor Su`aad Jalaal's opinion and he did not even bother to offer Shah Waliullah's opinion, who too did not count 4:15-16 among the abrogated verses, even though he quotes his opinion in support of the abrogation claim of 2:240. He would have been more accurate if he said it was the last three only. In fact, if he continued studying the rest of what the scholars wrote, he would discover that they agreed on only one verse: 58:12.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2010, 05:19 
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Linguistic wrote:
2. The "Musaabara" verse, 8:65.
3. The "private consultation" verse, 58:12.
4. The "night prayer" verses, 73:2-4.

These cases are the top 3 in terms of merit among all the cases that I have seen.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2010, 05:59 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Linguistic wrote:
2. The "Musaabara" verse, 8:65.
3. The "private consultation" verse, 58:12.
4. The "night prayer" verses, 73:2-4.

These cases are the top 3 in terms of merit among all the cases that I have seen.

And none of them specify a mandate, as defined by scholars of Deduction. They defined it as a deed which if done, one gets a reward and if not done, one suffers a punishment. In 58:12 and 73:2-4, no punishment was specified for non-compliance. The strongest language is in 8:65, but no punishment is specified in it. The threat against non-compliance is not in 8:65, but in 8:15-16, which only a few have claimed were abrogated,


How does one abrogate a recommendation? The consensus of the scholars is that abrogation is the lifting of a ruling. A recommendation is not a ruling. A ruling is either a mandate or a prohibition. Abrogation of a recommendation can only logically be by prohibition. Neither of the above three cases was followed by a prohibition. That is why these three cases are invalid abrogation claims, but valid naskh claims.

To illustrate: Suppose a father tells his son to study hard if he wants to get high marks in the exam. The son studies little and gets only a passing grade. The father then tells him it's OK as long as he passed. Does one conclude that the father has abrogated his demand that his son study hard? Of course not. Studying hard remains the better thing to do, because high marks are better than a passing grade. Whenever possible, the son should always try to study hard.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 28 Apr 2010, 00:34 
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How many total verses?

I have read before that the number of verses that are claimed to be abrogated is in the 500's according to some, but haven't seen actual claims beyond the 200's. It turns out that the 500's figure includes verses that were allegedly gone and not included in the text. Al-Jabri talks about 571 verses in his book, but only 201 verses in the text of the Quran (those reported by Ibn-Hilal) while the rest are estimates of number of verses that were gone, including some that were counted because of strange claims I have to say. At least we know that we are not missing chunks of claims of abrogated verses in the text of the Quran when we are in the 200's range.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 28 Apr 2010, 04:24 
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Abrogation Claims accepted by Makki

Al-Jabri describes in his book (page 116) how Makki Ibn Abu-Taleb shaved off abrogation claims on the basis of being statements of fact, exceptions, etc., and ended up approving only 6 cases

  1. Chapter 60 (سورة الممتحنة), and I assume he means verse 60:10, based on the expiration of the cause. Al-Jabri comments that expiration of the cause does not imply abrogation since the verse mandates something based on that cause, so the verse itself is valid. I agree, but I have no idea why Makki singled out this case since there are various other verses that apply only during the life of the Prophet (PBUH).

  2. The "private consultation" verse, 58:12 (abrogated)

  3. The change of Qibla verse, 2:144 (abrogating)

  4. The The "night prayer" verses, 73:2-4 (abrogated)

  5. The "steadfast" (musabara) verse 8:65 (abrogated)

  6. The Zakat verse (abrogating all charity verses).

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