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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2010, 05:34 
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Dr. Mustafa Zayd narrows the cases down to five cases abrogating six verses:

Abrogating/Abrogated
4:90/4:43
24:2/4:15-16
8:66/8:65
58:13/58:12
73:20/73:1-4

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2010, 11:57 
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Linguistic wrote:
Dr. Mustafa Zayd narrows the cases down to five cases abrogating six verses:

Abrogating/Abrogated
4:90/3:43
24:2/4:15-16
8:66/8:65
58:13/58:12
73:20/73:1-4

This is the complete list. The commentator on Zayd's book was talking about 5 cases involving 6 verses, so the discrepancy is that 4:15-16 count as two abrogated verses while they are the same 'case'. For some reason, the commentator didn't count 73:1-4 as multiple verses.

I went quickly through the author's arguments when I was verifying the list, and he elaborates amply and debates various points and opinions for each case. Nonetheless, his inclusion of 4:90/3:43, whose claim I find easy to refute, makes me think that his logic in that part of the book may not be unsurmountable.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 06:08 
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If we examine the opinions of all the scholars who spoke about abrogation, we will find that there was no consensus among them about which verses were abrogated or what did the abrogation.

In fact, if we exclude the scholars who rejected the notion that any verse in the text of the Quran is abrogated, scholars such as Al-Asfahaani and Dr. N.A. Tantaawi, we still cannot find consensus except on two cases:
  1. 58:13/58:12
  2. 73:20/73:1-14
The interesting thing about these two cases is that neither one has any impact on the religion! Both cases are particular to the Prophet, peace be upon him, and therefore do not apply to us after his death.

Thus, if we accept that consensus is a valid method of legislation, we will have to discard all claims of abrogation as they pertain to the law.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 07:08 
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Linguistic wrote:
In fact, if we exclude the scholars who rejected the notion that any verse in the text of the Quran is abrogated, scholars such as Al-Asfahaani and Dr. N.A. Tantaawi, we still cannot find consensus except on two cases:
  1. 58:13/58:12
  2. 73:20/73:1-14
The interesting thing about these two cases is that neither one has any impact on the religion! Both cases are particular to the Prophet, peace be upon him, and therefore do not apply to us after his death.

This simplifies our task in this project since these two cases perfectly fit the argument about the static/dynamic phases of the Quran. The more difficult case that we discussed extensively is 8:66/8:65, and I would be interested in pointers to those pro-abrogation opinions that did not agree with this case.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 19:07 
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Pragmatic wrote:
The more difficult case that we discussed extensively is 8:66/8:65, and I would be interested in pointers to those pro-abrogation opinions that did not agree with this case.

I read an article that said those were An-Nahhaas, Makki and Ibn Al-Jawzi. I don't know that for sure and would continue researching to verify it. If it is true, then this is particularly fascinating, since An-Nahhaas and Makki tend to be very liberal in claiming abrogation.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2010, 20:04 
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Linguistic wrote:
In fact, if we exclude the scholars who rejected the notion that any verse in the text of the Quran is abrogated, scholars such as Al-Asfahaani and Dr. N.A. Tantaawi, we still cannot find consensus except on two cases:
  1. 58:13/58:12
  2. 73:20/73:1-14

I stand corrected! It's actually only one verse that they agree on, 58:12! Shah Waliullah Dehlvi rejected the abrogation claim of 73:1-4, see this post for more information.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2010, 20:14 
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Linguistic wrote:
It's actually only one verse that they agree on, 58:12! Shah Waliullah Dehlvi rejected the abrogation claim of 73:1-4.

The more reason we need to get Shah Waliullah's writing about abrogation. The cases of 73:1-4 and 58:12 are so similar that it is very curious why he rejected 73:1-4 while keeping 58:12. I am also very curious about his argument rejecting the abrogation claim of 8:65.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2010, 20:19 
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Linguistic wrote:
Pragmatic wrote:
The more difficult case that we discussed extensively is 8:66/8:65, and I would be interested in pointers to those pro-abrogation opinions that did not agree with this case.

I read an article that said those were An-Nahhaas, Makki and Ibn Al-Jawzi. I don't know that for sure and would continue researching to verify it. If it is true, then this is particularly fascinating, since An-Nahhaas and Makki tend to be very liberal in claiming abrogation.

In this post, it is confirmed that An-Nahhaas rejected the abrogation claim of this case. This was reported by Ibn Al-Jawzi, but he did not comment on it, so we don't actually know if Ibn Al-Jawzi agrees. Sounds like he does. As for Makki, I don't have a confirmation yet that he rejected this case as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2010, 03:20 
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On pages 388-392 in volume 1 of his book, Dr. Mostafa Zaid listed the number of abrogated verses in each chapter of the Quran that each major scholar of the subject covered. It is a particularly informative table, so it's worth including here.

This is the pdf file of the table.

The actual verses that each scholar included are often different from the other scholars, and in some cases the scholar himself would disagree with the abrogation claims that he included. Zaid went on and compared the actual verses and listed the total number of different verses in each chapter of the Quran on pages 394-398. All in all, there are 293 verses in 72 chapters that were claimed to be abrogated, compared to the previously most comprehensive account by Ibn Al-Jawzi of 247 verses in 62 chapters.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2010, 17:06 
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Pragmatic wrote:
I am also very curious about his argument rejecting the abrogation claim of 8:65.

Actually, Shah Waliullah accepted the abrogation claim of 8:65. It was Ibn Al-Jawzi, An-Nahhaas and Makki who did not.

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