TheMostReadBook.org

An English translation of the Quran that is as close as possible to the Arabic sacred text
View active topics
  Verse(s):    
View unanswered posts





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 29 May 2010, 04:01 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1814
Location: USA
Linguistic wrote:
That is probably more accurate than this reference, (Admin note: Surf with caution)

Ihab starts refuting individual abrogation claims with a table of abrogated and abrogating verses on pages 315-323 of his book. The table also appears in the quoted reference above and in a King Fahd Assembly webpage. On both sites the numbering skips between 35 and 37, so there are only 44 cases not 45. Ihab does the numbering right, and mentions that the source of the table is research on Ibn Al-Jawzi's book without identifying the researcher. He adds his own name to the column "against" in all of the cases.

I counted the cases approved by Al-Suyuti on the webpage and Ihab's book, and they seem to be more on the webpage than in the book, so I suspect there are errors on the list (I didn't bother checking against Al-Suyuti's actual list). The quoted post above also points out a discrepancy in the cases of Makki. There is a case in the table that is not approved by anyone (4:92/5:9), so I am not sure why it was included. I was hoping that this table would be the set of 'serious cases' since it appears in more than one spot, but I don't think it was carefully done.

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 29 May 2010, 06:06 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2009, 16:10
Posts: 4480
Location: USA
Pragmatic wrote:
The table also appears in the quoted reference above and in a King Fahd Assembly webpage. On both sites the numbering skips between 35 and 37, so there are only 44 cases not 45. Ihab does the numbering right, and mentions that the source of the table is research on Ibn Al-Jawzi's book without identifying the researcher. He adds his own name to the column "against" in all of the cases.

I counted the cases approved by Al-Suyuti on the webpage and Ihab's book, and they seem to be more on the webpage than in the book, so I suspect there are errors on the list (I didn't bother checking against Al-Suyuti's actual list). The quoted post above also points out a discrepancy in the cases of Makki. There is a case in the table that is not approved by anyone (4:92/5:9), so I am not sure why it was included. I was hoping that this table would be the set of 'serious cases' since it appears in more than one spot, but I don't think it was carefully done.

Thanks for that info. I hadn't noticed your two observations about the case table before. You're right. I counted As-Suyooti's cases in the table and they are twenty, which is correct. We have the correct list in this post above in this topic, compiled from his book الإتقان في علوم القرآن.

We have not entered the 4:92/5:9 case yet, as I have not seen it in any of the books we studied so far. The closest we have to this is 5:1/4:92, but it claims that 4:92 is the abrogated verse, not the abrogating one.

We will have to construct our own table. We have the building blocks for it: In all case topics we keep a record of all opinions for and against the case in a post entitled "Who said what".

_________________
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2010, 04:25 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1814
Location: USA
In his book, Al-Ghali discusses 22 cases of abrogated verses:

2:115
2:178
2:180
2:184
2:219
2:221
2:240
2:284
4:15-16
4:24
4:33
5:2
6:141
6:145
8:1
8:65
24:3
47:4
58:12
74:1-3

plus 7 of the cases claimed to be abrogated by the sword verse:

2:190
2:191
2:217
2:256
4:90
6:66/70/106/107/91
8:61

plus 4 other cases he labels 'strange':

7:199
24:4-5
24:27
95:8

Since this author comes across as serious and balanced, the list may be a good set of the 'serious cases' that we are trying to identify. He does not comment on how he chose them (in what I have read so far).

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 22 Jun 2010, 06:13 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1814
Location: USA
On page 80 of his book, Al-Zalmi mentions that the total number of verses in the Quran that include a ruling does not exceed 500 verses. This seems lower than I would imagine, but if it is an accurate number it makes the abrogation claims look even more ridiculous since they would be covering more than 50% of all the verses in the Quran that include rulings.

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Index of abrogation cases we studied
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2010, 15:36 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2009, 16:10
Posts: 4480
Location: USA
In this post, I wish to list all the abrogation cases we studied and provide a link to each one. This will make it easier to locate the discussions and also keep a count of the cases. The index below will not include the verses claimed abrogated by the sword verse, 9:5. For that particular index, please visit this other post above.

9:60/2:3
3:85/2:62
4:48/2:81
2:104
9:29/2:109
2:144/2:115
2:150/2:115
2:130/2:158
2:160/2:159
5:5/2:173
Sunna/2:173
5:45/2:178
17:33/2:178
4:11-12/2:180
Sunna/2:180
2:187/2:183
2:185/2:184
2:222/2:187
2:191/2:190
2:194/2:190
2:191/2:191
2:193/2:191
17:33/2:194
2:196/2:196
9:60/2:215
2:286/2:216
9:122/2:216
9:36/2:217
5:90/2:219
9:60/2:219
9:103/2:219
5:5/2:221
Sunna/2:222
33:49/2:228
65:4/2:228
2:229-230/2:228
2:229/2:229
4:4/2:229
4:20/2:229
65:1/2:229
Narration/2:229
2:233/2:233
2:235/2:235
2:237/2:236
2:234/2:240
4:12/2:240
65:4/2:240
9:29/2:256
9:73/2:256
2:282/2:282
2:283/2:282
2:286/2:284
Hadeeth/2:284
2:185/2:286
------------
Subtotal: 54 affecting 34 verses.

16:125/3:20
Sunna/3:41
2:160/3:86-88
3:89/3:86-88
3:97/3:97
64:16/3:102
9:29/3:111
17:18/3:145
9:29/3:159
-----------
Subtotal: 9 affecting 10 verses.

2:220/4:2
4:129/4:3
4:10/4:6
4:29/4:6
4:11/4:7
4:11/4:8
2:182/4:9
2:220/4:10
4:6/4:10
Sunna/4:11-12
24:2/4:15-16
4:18/4:17
4:48/4:18
4:19/4:19
Sunna/4:19
4:22/4:22
4:23/4:23
2:228/4:24
23:5-7/4:24
65:1/4:24
Sunna/4:24
4:25/4:25
4:29/4:29
24:61/4:29
8:75/4:33
33:6/4:33
5:90/4:43
5:91/4:43
9:80/4:64
9:91/4:71
9:122/4:71
9:1-11/4:90
2:191/4:91
9:1/4:92
4:48/4:93
4:116/4:93
25:68/4:93
25:70/4:93
Sunna/4:101
4:146/4:145
------------
Subtotal: 40 affecting 29 verses.

9:17/5:2
9:28/5:2
5:5/5:3
6:121/5:5
Sunna/5:6
8:58/5:13
9:29/5:13
5:34/5:33
Sunna/5:38
5:49/5:42
3:85/5:69
5:96/5:95
5:105/5:105
65:2/5:106-108
------------
Subtotal: 14 affecting 14 verses.

48:2/6:15
9:36/6:66-67
4:140/6:68-69
5:5/6:121
9:60/6:141
5:3/6:145
Sunna/6:145
2:220/6:152
-----------
Subtotal: 8 affecting 9 verses.

9:60/7:199

8:41/8:1
8:66/8:15-16
8:34/8:33
8:39-40/8:38
9:29/8:61
47:35/8:61
8:66/8:65
47:4/8:67
8:75/8:72
33:6/8:72
-----------
Subtotal: 10 affecting 9 verses.

8:58/9:2
9:29/9:5
47:4/9:5
9:60/9:34
9:103/9:34
9:91/9:39
9:122/9:39
9:91/9:41
9:122/9:41
24:62/9:43-44
9:84/9:80
63:6/9:80
9:103/9:84
9:99/9:97-98
9:122/9:120
9:36/9:123
------------
Subtotal: 16 affecting 13 verses.

48:2/10:15

17:18/11:15

Sunna/12:109
87:6/12:109
----------
Subtotal: 2 affecting 1 verse.

4:48/13:6

16:18/14:34

5:90/16:67
5:89/16:91
4:98/16:106
16:106/16:106
16:110/16:106
5:5/16:115
-----------
Subtotal: 6 affecting 4 verses.

9:113/17:24
2:220/17:34
3:77/17:34
83:1/17:35
7:205/17:110
15:94/17:110
-----------
Subtotal: 6 affecting 4 verses.

76:30/18:29
81:29/18:29
-----------
Subtotal: 2 affecting 1 verse.

Sunna/19:26
19:60/19:59
19:72/19:71
-----------
Subtotal: 3 affecting 3 verses.

87:6/20:114

Sunna/21:78-79
21:101-103/21:98-100
-----------
Subtotal: 2 affecting 5 verses.

22:28
5:3/22:30
39:3/22:39
87:6/22:52
2:286/22:78
64:16/22:78
-----------
Subtotal: 6 affecting 5 verses.

23:96

4:25/24:2
Sunna/24:2
24:32/24:3
24:5/24:4
24:6/24:4
24:7/24:4
24:7,9/24:6
24:29/24:27
24:31/24:31
24:60/24:31
24:3/24:32
24:58
24:59/24:58
4:29/24:61
------------
Subtotal: 14 affecting 10 verses.

4:48/25:68-70
4:93/25:68-70
25:70/25:68-69
-----------
Subtotal: 3 claims affecting 3 verses.

26:227/26:224

9:29/29:46

Sunna/31:14

Sunna/33:4-5
2:237/33:49
33:50/33:51
33:50/33:52
-----------
Subtotal: 4 affecting 5 verses.

37:107/37:102

Sunna/38:33
Analysis/38:44

22:39/39:3
48:2/39:13
39:53
-----------
Subtotal: 3 affecting 3 verses.

40:77/40:77

40:7/42:5
17:18/42:20
34:47/42:23
42:43/42:39-42
42:40/42:40
23:96/42:42
41:34/42:42
-----------
Subtotal: 7 affecting 10 verses.

33:47/46:9
48:2/46:9
48:5/46:9
-----------
Subtotal: 3 affecting the same 1 verse.

8:57/47:4
9:60/47:36
47:37/47:36
47:38/47:36-37
-----------
Subtotal: 4 affecting 3 verses.

9:60/51:19
9:103/51:19
51:55/51:54
-----------
Subtotal: 3 affecting 2 verses.

Regular prayers/52:48

52:21/53:39

56:39-40/56:13-14
-----------
Subtotal: 1 affecting 2 verses.

58:13/58:12

9:29/59:3
8:41/59:7

9:1-11/60:8
60:9/60:8
5:5/60:10
9:1/60:10
8:41/60:11
9:1/60:11
Sunna/60:11
Consensus/60:12
-----------
Subtotal: 8 affecting 4 verses.

9:60/63:10

Consensus/65:2
Sunna/65:6

54:46/67:16

9:60/70:24-25
----------
Subtotal: 1 claim affecting 2 verses.

73:3/73:1-2
73:4/73:3
73:20/73:1-4
Regular prayers/73:1-4
20:2/73:4
4:28/73:5
76:30/73:19
----------
Subtotal: 7 affecting 6 verses.

87:6/75:16

17:79/76:26
76:30/76:29
----------
Subtotal: 2 affecting 1 verse.

76:30/80:12

76:30/81:28
81:29/81:28
----------
Subtotal: 2 affecting 1 verse.

87:7/87:6
9:60/87:14
----------
Subtotal: 2 affecting 2 verses.

9:73/88:22

94:7

103:3/103:2

107:7

Total so far: 271 claims affecting 226 verses.
Total does not include cases where the sword verse is claimed abrogating.

_________________
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2010, 11:09 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1814
Location: USA
May God reward you for this marvelous effort.

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2010, 05:15 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1814
Location: USA
I can see categories of abrogation claims,

-- Serious Claims:
1. The big three.
2. Famous claims (e.g., the widow and alcohol verses).

-- Other Claims:
3. Blanket claims (e.g,, the sword and the zakat verses).
4. Less famous claims but with merit (including ones we found merit in).

-- Easily Dismissed Claims:
5. Claims with little or no merit (e.g., statements of fact, exceptions, elaborations, etc.).
6. Strange/confused claims (including many of the new claims from نفس الصباح ).

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2010, 13:43 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2009, 16:10
Posts: 4480
Location: USA
Pragmatic wrote:
I can see categories of abrogation claims,

-- Serious Claims:
1. The big three.
2. Famous claims (e.g., the widow and alcohol verses).

-- Other Claims:
3. Blanket claims (e.g,, the sword and the zakat verses).
4. Less famous claims but with merit (including ones we found merit in).

-- Easily Dismissed Claims:
5. Claims with little or no merit (e.g., statements of fact, exceptions, elaborations, etc.).
6. Strange/confused claims (including many of the new claims from نفس الصباح ).

I like this grouping. Let's tally those and list them in your post, with links. For instance:

The big three: 8:66/8:65, 58:13/58:12 and 73:20/73:1-4.

Blanket claims: http://forum.themostreadbook.org/viewtopic.php?f=130&t=2764

Other popular claims: 2:234/2:240, 5:90/2:219,4:43, 24:2/4:15-16

Other claims with apparent merit: 5:5/6:121.

Please add those, and others you think belong, to your post, Pragmatic.

_________________
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 06 Sep 2010, 23:19 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2009, 16:10
Posts: 4480
Location: USA
As of this writing, we now have discussions about 365 abrogation claims, one for each day of the calendar year!

Update: As of August 6th, 2013, we now have 424 claims affecting 383 verses! Given what you wrote below, Pragmatic, it seems that the opinion of the pro-abrogation folk would lead to annulling almost all rulings of the Quran!

Pragmatic wrote:
On page 80 of his book, Al-Zalmi mentions that the total number of verses in the Quran that include a ruling does not exceed 500 verses.

_________________
A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Verses?
PostPosted: 07 Sep 2010, 04:29 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 May 2009, 00:16
Posts: 1814
Location: USA
Linguistic wrote:
As of this writing, we now have discussions about 365 abrogation claims, one for each day of the calendar year!

Happy anniversary! :)

_________________
To translate is the best way to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
It is currently 23 Oct 2017, 02:42

All times are UTC

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group