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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 07:22 
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Linguistic wrote:
Pragmatic wrote:
Why would a story teller need to know about abrogation? What is the context that made Aly (RA) ask him in the first place about such knowledge, then chastise him for it?

I think that when they say "story teller" (قاص), they meant one who told stories of the Prophet, PBUH, (Seera) and his fellows (Sahaaba). That involved many hadeeths.

Just realized that this explanation is very important. If he was telling hadiths, then he should know the abrogated and abrogating since the abrogated hadiths are no longer valid. Is there a reference we can cite for this characterization of قاص?

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 28 Dec 2017, 21:49 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Linguistic wrote:
I think that when they say "story teller" (قاص), they meant one who told stories of the Prophet, PBUH, (Seera) and his fellows (Sahaaba). That involved many hadeeths.

Just realized that this explanation is very important. If he was telling hadiths, then he should know the abrogated and abrogating since the abrogated hadiths are no longer valid. Is there a reference we can cite for this characterization of قاص?

Islamic literature has been very harsh on story tellers القصاص, and books have been written with titles such as أكاذيب القصاص (Lies of the story tellers). They were mostly people making up sensational, emotional stories to gather the unaware public around them and gain popularity or charity.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2019, 01:36 
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Pragmatic wrote:
Linguistic wrote:
`Afaana, in his book الرأي الصواب في منسوخ الكتاب, page 36, says that the story was narrated by Ad-Dhahhaak ibn Muzaahim Al-Hilaali, who died in 105 A.H, who attributed it to Ibn Abbaas. But there's one problem: He never met the man! Sa`eed ibn Jabeer said that Ad-Dhahhaak "never met Ibn Abbaas, so how can his narrating be accepted?" Ibn Hibbaan said "Everything narrated from Ad-Dhahhaak needs to be scrutinized."

That should go in the (long) section where we discuss هلكت وأهلكت.

Perhaps this is the right place to put together what we learned about that story so far:
  • Only three versions of this story have been documented in the Dorar database (http://www.dorar.net/hadith). See a list of them here. But it is mentioned by others in more versions, so why are those other version not documented by Dorar?

  • Al-Qurtobi, in his exegesis book, reports this narration without authentication:

    روى أبو البختري قال: دخل علي رضي الله عنه المسجد فإذا رجل يخوف الناس، فقال: ما هذا؟ قالوا: رجل يذكر الناس، فقال: ليس برجل يذكر الناس، لكنه يقول أنا فلان ابن فلان فاعرفوني، فأرسل إليه فقال: أتعرف الناسخ من المنسوخ؟ فقال: لا، قال: فاخرج من مسجدنا ولا تذكر فيه. وفي رواية أخرى: أعلمت الناسخ والمنسوخ؟ قال: لا، قال: هلكت وأهلكت. ومثله عن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما

    Note that the narrator, Abu-Albukhturi, does not say how he learned that from Ali (RA). Direct hearing is a necessary prerequisite for authentication.

  • Pragmatic found five books on abrogation where the story is quoted for evidence. See them here.

  • Dr. Husayn Nassaar quotes the story, without authentication, and quotes other narrations to support the claim of abrogation in the Quran - all without any authentication, and I could not find any of the narrations he gave for evidence anywhere! See this post for details.

This post is work in progress...

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of the abrogation doctrine
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2019, 06:35 
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Linguistic wrote:
This post is work in progress...

Great hub for the information about هلكت وأهلكت.

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